Is this a reasonable cost for plumbing first fix?

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

This feels a bit high - what’s the opinion here?

 

Just before receiving this, I’ve been looking at running the pipework from plant room to the end points, then this came in (I’m now definitely considering running the pipework myself).

 

Approximate scope:

First fix plumbing pipework install. Only installing a mains connection point in the plant room (leaving the UFH / DHW / ASHP to others).

260sqm, 4 bed house with kitchen sink, dishwasher, freezer with water/ice dispenser, downstairs WC, washing machine, family bathroom & 2 en-suite. Doesn’t include bathroom installation (just pipes to the correct positions in the wall).

 

Labour cost £2,750.00 for all pipe installation (not bathroom install)

Materials cost £1,780.00 For all materials as above based on 28mm copper main to plank room plus fittings and stop cocks plus 22mm hep2o pipe and fittings for the hot and cold runs with 15mm hep 20 and 15mm copper spurs. Also, isolation valves to toilets, sinks, bath and showers.

 

Thoughts? Experience elsewhere?

[crispy_wafer]

If you have the time and inclination then it’s doable, work out the pipe runs to minimise crossovers and interference from other services if space is tight, go buy rolls of said pipe and clips to keep it tidy and go for it.  Many of us have trod this path, and history shows that we do like a good plumbing thread if you are so minded to let others have their 2p worth.  Biggest minor issues are how to bring the pipe work tidily into plant room if having individual runs, you can end up with 20 or so individual pipes.  And the various wall plate elbows and terminations at the end point.  I’m not sure it’s 4 and half grands worth of work in total, but in this day and age where labour costs mucho money then I’d diy it.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

16 minutes ago, crispy_wafer said:

If you have the time and inclination then it’s doable, work out the pipe runs to minimise crossovers and interference from other services if space is tight, go buy rolls of said pipe and clips to keep it tidy and go for it.  Many of us have trod this path, and history shows that we do like a good plumbing thread if you are so minded to let others have their 2p worth.  Biggest minor issues are how to bring the pipe work tidily into plant room if having individual runs, you can end up with 20 or so individual pipes.  And the various wall plate elbows and terminations at the end point.  I’m not sure it’s 4 and half grands worth of work in total, but in this day and age where labour costs mucho money then I’d diy it.

@crispy_wafer thanks - we do like some of the more doable DIY and are in need of controlling the budget, so doing this is very much worth our time! I also think I am more focussed on tidy routing of services…

[JohnMo]

59 minutes ago, Great_scot_selfbuild said:

based on 28mm copper main to plank room plus fittings and stop cocks plus 22mm hep2o pipe and fittings for the hot and cold runs with 15mm hep 20 and 15mm copper spurs. Also, isolation valves to toilets, sinks, bath and showers.

My comments 

22mm main run for DHW, will take an utter age to get hot water out the tap. You really want a manifold system. Mine is DHW cylinder - 15mm to manifold central location, then from manifold 15mm run to each wet room and spur from there.

 

No comment on price 

[Nickfromwales]

22mm backbone is fine if there’s a hot return. 
 

Otherwise, just painfully slow to get hot water from basin taps.

 

Avoid. 

[FarmerN]

Our kitchen sink is far corner of house to DHW cylinder,  half run in 22mm pipe, can nearly fill a washing up bowl before hot arrives.

Manifold system sounds good to me.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

4 hours ago, FarmerN said:

Our kitchen sink is far corner of house to DHW cylinder,  half run in 22mm pipe, can nearly fill a washing up bowl before hot arrives.

Manifold system sounds good to me.

@FarmerN sorry - what do you mean by ‘half run’?

[FarmerN]

1^st half of the pipe length is in 22mm before going down to 15 mm.

[Oz07]

If you have manifold close to hot water tank then presumably could use big pipe to manifold?

[Nickfromwales]

Nobody series plumbs anymore, that I know, as it’s just inefficient and introduces bucketloads of hidden joints. 
 

👎. 
 

“Radial ‘til I die”. 

[marshian]

9 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Nobody series plumbs anymore, that I know, as it’s just inefficient and introduces bucketloads of hidden joints. 
 

👎. 
 

“Radial ‘til I die”. 

 

When I re-do my downstairs circuit I'm still going to "reverse return" the flow and returns from all the rads 

 

ie FIrst Rad "flow" is last Rad "return" etc 

[Nickfromwales]

Just now, marshian said:

 

When I re-do my downstairs circuit I'm still going to "reverse return" the flow and returns from all the rads 

 

ie FIrst Rad "flow" is last Rad "return" etc 

You have way too much spare time mate. 😅

[Oz07]

30 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Nobody series plumbs anymore, that I know, as it’s just inefficient and introduces bucketloads of hidden joints. 
 

👎. 
 

“Radial ‘til I die”. 

What does that mean put in layman's terms

[marshian]

43 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

You have way too much spare time mate. 😅

 

I need another hobby

[JohnMo]

33 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

What does that mean put in layman's terms

Series - long pipe from cylinder to last service off take, intermediate user tees off the long pipe. Generally all tees and other joints hidden in the building fabric.

 

Radial, pipe from cylinder to manifold (with or without isolation valves) pipes go direct from manifold to user point. No hidden joints in the building fabric. 

 

A hybrid of this, is a radial system to each wet room and then in room go series.

[Oz07]

39 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Series - long pipe from cylinder to last service off take, intermediate user tees off the long pipe. Generally all tees and other joints hidden in the building fabric.

 

Radial, pipe from cylinder to manifold (with or without isolation valves) pipes go direct from manifold to user point. No hidden joints in the building fabric. 

 

A hybrid of this, is a radial system to each wet room and then in room go series.

Ah I understand i had manifold in last place worked well. If your cylinder is in airing cupboard and you have a separate utility/ plant room i suppose you'd have hot manifold in ac and cold in utility/plant?

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

What does that mean put in layman's terms

Point to point, multiples of continuous pipe from A - B, with a pipe for bath hot, a pipe for bath cold, a pipe for shower hot, another for shower cold, another for WC cold, another for sink hot, and cold, and so on until the whole house is plumbed. 
 

Each fed from a hot manifold and a cold manifold, so every individual pipe can be isolated independently for service.

 

2 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Ah I understand i had manifold in last place worked well. If your cylinder is in airing cupboard and you have a separate utility/ plant room i suppose you'd have hot manifold in ac and cold in utility/plant?

I put them in the same place to simplify plumbing. 

[Spinny]

Yep I wish I had had this approach.

Unfortunately like 99% of non-plumbers, and possibly 50%(?) of actual plumbers, had never heard of it. Likewise had never heard of hot return.

Trouble is these things require more pipe length being run. Many domestic plumbers are never going to do it or offer it. They have quoted the job, now they, or the builder they are working for, want to maximise profit by minimising materials, not spend it buying the customer a manifold and putting in an inch of extra pipe.

 

Find a mass market builder that does this type of plumbing - I bet they don't exist.

Edited yesterday at 19:12 by Spinny

[JohnMo]

17 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Ah I understand i had manifold in last place worked well. If your cylinder is in airing cupboard and you have a separate utility/ plant room i suppose you'd have hot manifold in ac and cold in utility/plant?

My manifold is in the centre of the house cylinder at one end, just have 15mm pipe between the two. 

 

14 minutes ago, Spinny said:

Unfortunately possibly 50%(?) of actual plumbers, had never heard of it

But that is just a sad reflection of the low skill levels in the UK and zero focus on professional development.

[SimonD]

15 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Nobody series plumbs anymore, that I know, as it’s just inefficient and introduces bucketloads of hidden joints. 
 

👎. 
 

“Radial ‘til I die”. 

 

I think you must live on a different planet, Nick. I see series plumbed all the time with absolutely no thought whatsoever. Plumbers (who do very good quality work) who mindlessly just go, 'oh it's unvented so that needs 22mm to the bathroom, bla, bla, bla. Show them a manifold and the tilt function goes into overdrive and they ask wtf?

Yes, radial all the time for me. And just like you, rads should also be connected through a manifold - ideally with flow regulators

[-rick-]

36 minutes ago, SimonD said:

I think you must live on a different planet, Nick.

 

Self build/custom homes are a different planet to bog standard UK housing, no? It's a situation where the customer cares about the details (to varying degrees but still much more than developers).

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Self build/custom homes are a different planet to bog standard UK housing, no?

Slightly smaller planet than that, most self builders aren't really self builders, they get a builder to build a house, the builder dies what he normally does. Detail is someone else's problem.

[Oz07]

14 hours ago, JohnMo said:

My manifold is in the centre of the house cylinder at one end, just have 15mm pipe between the two. 

 

But that is just a sad reflection of the low skill levels in the UK and zero focus on professional development.

Does it take you a long time to draw off hot at basins then?

[Nickfromwales]

57 minutes ago, -rick- said:

 

Self build/custom homes are a different planet to bog standard UK housing, no? It's a situation where the customer cares about the details (to varying degrees but still much more than developers).

I should have clarified, but I was 3 pints in at that stage.

 

Nobody who gives a feck basically.

 

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

I think you must live on a different planet, Nick.

I think you’re probably right. lol. 

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

12 hours ago, SimonD said:

I see series plumbed all the time with absolutely no thought whatsoever. Plumbers (who do very good quality work) who mindlessly just go, 'oh it's unvented so that needs 22mm to the bathroom, bla, bla, bla.

Yes - this is what I’ve had proposed, but I’m taking it on myself now that I’ve accelerated up a steep learning curve!