Proposed changes to Permitted Development rights for small wind turbine

[Dillsue]

50 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

Any changes to the rules would need to put the onus on the 'installer' to use MCS certified - and tested - equipment.  This is one of the reasons why a dedicated install by an electrician is important - no Sparky will allow a dangerous installation if it means that he might be fined or lose certification.  

Unless you want to join one of the export payment schemes AFAIK there's currently no requirement for MCS certification or testing for anything....products or installations??

[Dillsue]

56 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

Plug-in solar is fitted in a socket right next to an outlet with an EV plugged in on a faulty granny charger for 8 hours, (or some faulty high load device is plugged in nearby). 

The PV panels will be supplying power to the nearest local load, which in this scenario could be near or above the 2.5mm cable rating for a sustained period.

?? Maybe I'm missing something but a faulty anything is limited to 13amp by the fuse in the plug which is way less than 2.5mm cable can carry. Any adjacent plug in solar is only offsetting what that faulty load would draw from the consumer unit but is again limited to 13amp by its plug? If plug in solar is limited to 800watt then it's hard to see a problem?? Unless.......

 

If you plugged in multiple plug in solar units then you could have a problem if you also plug in multiple high loads, that's where the regulators might have a problem but thats the same problem Europe will already be dealing with??

[sgt_woulds]

OPSS has reported some cheap chinese chargers that have been found without fuses fitted. 

 

A proper granny charger plug should have a fuse and a thermister to limit plug heat, but again, what you order off TEMU might only look fine on the surface.  

 

Granny chargers already cause scorching damage to sockets (which are not rated for 10a continous loads for 8 hours plus).  What if the P-I-S was plugged into a double socket with the car?  (I'm sure you can think of other examples!  Nothing exceeds mankinds seemingly boundless capacity for stupidity)

 

Think of this another way.  What if its a long ring circuit, with lots of high load items (plug in stove oven, microwave, kettle, car charger, porn server, etc, etc), all switched on at the same time.  Each load is cumulative even if they are only drawing less than 10 amps each. 

 

Without P-I-S that high cumulative draw will be detected by the mcb.  With P-I-S it could be be 'situation normal' whilst the cables burn out in the walls. 

[DamonHD]

3 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

 

Not necessarily.  The trouble with this type of product is that it encourages a race to the bottom with consumers used to buying the cheapest offer on Amazon for a no-name panel and inverter combo.

 

Back in 2012 I installed some supposedly compliant (G83/2) Chinese Renasolar Micro inverters on a couple of old panels on my garage.  Renasolar, even back then, was not some fly-by-night chinese company.  I was literally shocked to discover that, when I isolated the mains to change a lighting circuit, the little barstools kept generating for a good 5 to 10 minutes after the mains was switched off.  More of a UPS than full islanding, but certainly not compliant with any regulations then or now.

 

 

 

Do you think home insurers would pay out for a fire that was caused—or allowed to be caused—by the operation of a plug‑in solar array?  Where would the onus of fault lie?

Your experience was nasty, and we should hold responsible the suppliers and importers of faulty dangerous goods.

 

There is a thorough write-up here, BTW:

 

https://solarenergyconcepts.co.uk/post/plug-in-solar-uk/

[Dillsue]

7 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

OPSS has reported some cheap chinese chargers that have been found without fuses fitted. 

 

A proper granny charger plug should have a fuse and a thermister to limit plug heat, but again, what you order off TEMU might only look fine on the surface.  

 

Granny chargers already cause scorching damage to sockets (which are not rated for 10a continous loads for 8 hours plus).  What if the P-I-S was plugged into a double socket with the car?  (I'm sure you can think of other examples!  Nothing exceeds mankinds seemingly boundless capacity for stupidity)

 

Think of this another way.  What if its a long ring circuit, with lots of high load items (plug in stove oven, microwave, kettle, car charger, porn server, etc, etc), all switched on at the same time.  Each load is cumulative even if they are only drawing less than 10 amps each. 

 

Without P-I-S that high cumulative draw will be detected by the mcb.  With P-I-S it could be be 'situation normal' whilst the cables burn out in the walls. 

A single <800w plug in solar is going to put around 3 amps into the circuit which the circuits MCB/fuse wont see. I dont know what the max a typical ring is rated for but I'd be certain there's enough difference between the max capacity and a typical 32amp MCB for the cable to safely absorb the 3 amps. I don't see why your spark was fretting about a single plug in solar and an adjacent load?

 

Obviously if you're buying cheap stuff from non EU suppliers then you take on board the risk of using potentially unregulated stuff.....but that's as we are now with a whole load of dodgy imported stuff.

 

Don't know where the granny charger that scorched a socket came from but the few weeks we used ours before a proper charger went in, and there weren't any problems. The plug was warm after a few hours but nowhere near damaging anything. Was the one your referring to a cheap import?

 

Edited Wednesday at 19:49 by Dillsue

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

OPSS has reported some cheap chinese chargers that have been found without fuses fitted. 

 

A proper granny charger plug should have a fuse and a thermister to limit plug heat, but again, what you order off TEMU might only look fine on the surface.  

 

Granny chargers already cause scorching damage to sockets (which are not rated for 10a continous loads for 8 hours plus).  What if the P-I-S was plugged into a double socket with the car?  (I'm sure you can think of other examples!  Nothing exceeds mankinds seemingly boundless capacity for stupidity)

 

Think of this another way.  What if its a long ring circuit, with lots of high load items (plug in stove oven, microwave, kettle, car charger, porn server, etc, etc), all switched on at the same time.  Each load is cumulative even if they are only drawing less than 10 amps each. 

 

Without P-I-S that high cumulative draw will be detected by the mcb.  With P-I-S it could be be 'situation normal' whilst the cables burn out in the walls. 

 

Theres heaps of completely non compliant electrical stuff for sale. Most of it on Amazon. Simply doesnt comply with anything.

 

No one cares, certainly not the authorities.

 

Its worse still where its shipped direct to the consumer from China

 

I bought a transformer to run a cheap chinese heater in the poly tunnel. The 240v input terminals dont even have a cover! A 10th of the price of anything compliant though. Ill make a cover. But i wouldnt put it in my house though.

 

As per discission above, clearly one panel doesnt represent much risk, but you know people will buy 5 or 10 and plug them all in, rendering the circuit fuse or breaker worthless. Equally, how is the export limit then controlled?

 

[sgt_woulds]

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Theres heaps of completely non compliant electrical stuff for sale. Most of it on Amazon. Simply doesnt comply with anything.

 

 

 

The market is driven by cost not quality.  People searching for the lowest price know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

As per discission above, clearly one panel doesnt represent much risk, but you know people will buy 5 or 10 and plug them all in, rendering the circuit fuse or breaker worthless. Equally, how is the export limit then controlled?

 

 

 

Exactly.     There are lots of sockets in a house = I can plug in as many panels as I like.

 

The uninitiated will think 'hmmm, AC panels are cheap' = 'I can take my house offgrid' (= 999 !!! 😞).  

 

Are plug-in solar users expected to understand how electricity works?

[sgt_woulds]

12 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Don't know where the granny charger that scorched a socket came from but the few weeks we used ours before a proper charger went in, and there weren't any problems. The plug was warm after a few hours but nowhere near damaging anything. Was the one your referring to a cheap import?

 

 

 

Exactly my point.  You just assume nothing bad is happening because you cant see it.  Yet...!   Which is down to dumb luck. 

 

This kind of ignorance is exactly what will be applied to PIS.  

 

There are plenty of examples to be found with an interweb search, and plenty more if you talk to an electrician.

 

The point is that this is not just about what you plug in, it is about the state of your home wiring too - the stuff you cant see. 

 

It doesn't have to be dodgy DIY wiring, it can be simple wear and tear in the system (e.g. neutrals working lose over time) or lower quality or counterfeit materials used unknowingly and hidden behind the walls.

 

Even the bits you can see (like modern electrical sockets), can hide dangers until too late; charging an EV pushes the the plug and outlet right to the very limit of its capability.

 

 

To quote Jerremy Harris, the normal sequence goes something like this:

 

1. The plug gets warmer than normal, after a long period of running at high load.

2. Heat is conducted down the line pin, and transferred to the hard brass contacts in the socket.

3. Over time, the brass contacts fatigue from the heat, lose some of their springiness and so no longer make such a good contact with the plug pin.

4. This increased contact resistance causes the socket contacts and the plug pin to get hotter, as now there are two heat sources.

5. The build up of heat further reduces the socket contact spring pressure, increasing contact resistance still further and making things even hotter.

6. If left uncontrolled, then the area around the line pin will break down and char, and there may be enough heat transferred to the thermoplastic that many plugs are made from to cause it to distort, perhaps even catch fire.

 

 

For years, plugs were all made from thermoset plastics, and this gave two big advantages. The obvious one is that they don't melt and distort when they get hot, the less obvious one is that they provide an early warning when they get hot, as most of them give off a pretty strong fishy smell when really hot.

 

Modern sockets are now made with thermoplastics that are more brittle and don't give off any warning smells.  By the time you see scorching of the plastics, hidden damage has already happened internaly.

 

 

Why granny chargers are dangerous and fatalities will occur before they’re banned - Norwich Electricians

 

Granny charger fire warning | General Chat Forum | MGEVs.com MG EVs Community

 

EV charging cables: how safe are aftermarket leads? | What Car?

 

 

 

[-rick-]

2 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

Exactly.     There are lots of sockets in a house = I can plug in as many panels as I like.

 

The uninitiated will think 'hmmm, AC panels are cheap' = 'I can take my house offgrid' (= 999 !!! 😞).  

 

Are plug-in solar users expected to understand how electricity works?

 

Where do you draw the line though? Just because someone CAN harm themselves (or others) with a product doesn't mean we shouldn't offer it for sale. 

 

Mandate clear instructions, mandate regular reminders on bills and questions when people change energy suppliers. Make sure information is regularly shared publicly but don't say 'oh someone might do something stupid with this so we won't offer it for sale'. The products will still be available, idiots will still buy them and the safety of those products will be less than if you had sensible rules around them rather than saying no.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Just because someone CAN harm themselves (or others) with a product doesn't mean we shouldn't offer it for sale. 

Just like the NRA want.

I suspect the they would oppose PID in Fairfax VA though.

 

But you are totally correct, we accept about 1,700 deaths a year on our roads, 75% being males.

So get the girls to unplug them.

[sgt_woulds]

The potential harm from someone 'doing something stupid' is not limited to that person.

 

A house fire wcould also involve family members, visitors, neighbours, and members of the emergency services.

 

We already have a way of ameliorating the potential dangers of PV installations.  It is by having a dedicated circuit installed by a qualified electrician.  

[sgt_woulds]

Ha! I had thought of the gun argument, but didn't go there...

[-rick-]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Just like the NRA want.

I suspect the they would oppose PID in Fairfax VA though.

 

But you are totally correct, we accept about 1,700 deaths a year on our roads, 75% being males.

So get the girls to unplug them.

 

We have to draw a line somewhere. At some point the attempts to make things safer just make things impossible, unaffordable or impractical. Germany now has 1 million on these plug in devices, I expect thats enough to generate some fairly robust safety data to see how dangerous plug in solar actually is. I suspect not very much at all.

 

6 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

The potential harm from someone 'doing something stupid' is not limited to that person.

 

No, and we have to draw a line somewhere, but in this case my strong suspicion is that the products are safe enough.

 

6 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

A house fire wcould also involve family members, visitors, neighbours, and members of the emergency services.

 

Sure, the question is how likely is it to happen? Can you address the bulk of risks through safety/product standards and public information.

 

6 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

We already have a way of ameliorating the potential dangers of PV installations.  It is by having a dedicated circuit installed by a qualified electrician.  

 

And that increases the cost 10x. Are the safety risks of plug in solar (when limited to 800w) sufficient to justify that? I argue not.

 

Edit to add: I say 10x because as soon as you start getting installers involved whats the point of a tiny system? You end up with a bigger one and before you know it you are at 10x cost. The whole point of these systems is that you can buy them as a renter. Put them in for a short time and then take them with you when you move. This doesn't work if you need to get the landlord + electricitians involved.

Edited 13 hours ago by -rick-

[Roger440]

7 hours ago, -rick- said:

 

No, and we have to draw a line somewhere, but in this case my strong suspicion is that the products are safe enough.

 

In a sensible world, yes, you are right.

 

Meanwhile back in the UK, anyone signing off on this, when someone does kill themselves that person will potentially be up for manslaughter. On the basis that introducing said panels has, demonstrably made things less safe. I cant see any potential argument to the contrary.

 

Thats the world we live in now. As a wise person once told me when i was on the railway, safety is like a ratchet.

 

It will be interesting to see how and who authorises this.

 

Thats before we consider that products designed to the required standard will be much more expensive than cheap ones off temu which will comply with nothing.

 

If we had meaningful enforcement of standards, that particular risk could be managed. But we have major retailers openly selling non compliant, actually dangerous products every day. And no one cares.

[JohnMo]

You can buy them now have been able too for an age. Ecoflow sell them, the instructions simply state in the UK we sell without the plug, as you need to connect to the CU. These systems exist suspect there are plenty just plugged in already. They also sell batteries to plug in as well. Output is just restricted to keep them safe, unless the appliance is directly plugged into the battery.

[-rick-]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

Meanwhile back in the UK, anyone signing off on this, when someone does kill themselves that person will potentially be up for manslaughter. On the basis that introducing said panels has, demonstrably made things less safe. I cant see any potential argument to the contrary.

 

If that's true then anyone who installs an oven/hob and then someone else manages to cause a deadly fire using it could also be held liable. Thats absurd.

 

If you buy a dodgy uncertified product and install that then I can see there being a liability. But if you install a UKCA/CE marked product and do so in accordance to the manufacturers instructions then you should be ok.

 

I'm not saying don't regulate this stuff. I'm saying these devices are safe enough with the restrictions as discussed (800W limit, automatic shutoff if no mains detected, no more than one unit installed). Trying to say 'well someone might install 2 therefore we can't allow anyone to install any' is ridiculous.

 

Edit: I suspect the 800W limit is set as such as it is so far below the limit on most domestic circuits that even if the instructions are violated and 4 units are installed you are still going to be within the safe limits of any circuit.

Edited 5 hours ago by -rick-

[Roger440]

52 minutes ago, -rick- said:

 

If that's true then anyone who installs an oven/hob and then someone else manages to cause a deadly fire using it could also be held liable. Thats absurd.

 

If you buy a dodgy uncertified product and install that then I can see there being a liability. But if you install a UKCA/CE marked product and do so in accordance to the manufacturers instructions then you should be ok.

 

I'm not saying don't regulate this stuff. I'm saying these devices are safe enough with the restrictions as discussed (800W limit, automatic shutoff if no mains detected, no more than one unit installed). Trying to say 'well someone might install 2 therefore we can't allow anyone to install any' is ridiculous.

 

Edit: I suspect the 800W limit is set as such as it is so far below the limit on most domestic circuits that even if the instructions are violated and 4 units are installed you are still going to be within the safe limits of any circuit.

 

I think you have misinterpreted my comment.

 

An electrician following the rules is fine.

 

Im talking about the people who set the rules. If you knowingly relax rules and regulations, long standing regulations based on logic and a logical progression of improved safety over time,  and people suffer harm as a consequence, you will have a hard time defending that in court. Of course someone, or some organisation has to be sufficently motivated to take you to court.

 

Dont get me wrong, i agree with you that its gone to far, we are backing ourselves into a corner generally where nothing can get done, if you follow the rules. Ill include building regs in that. But you or i declaring that doesnt actually change anything in real life.

 

The reality is, people will die, that might not otherwise die. Lots? No. Tiny numbers. Fractions of a % of people fallling down stairs. But they will. Probably from cheap chinese crap that leaves the pins on the plug at 240v when unplugged. It as clear as day thats going to happen. And entirely forseeable.

 

Edited to add, the average member of the public, buying a solar panel from Amazon, has no idea what regs apply, or what UKCA/CE is or means. They will just buy the cheapest they can buy. Expecting the public to manage that for themselves is, frankly, nonsense.

Edited 4 hours ago by Roger440

[-rick-]

2 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

The reality is, people will die, that might not otherwise die. Lots? No. Tiny numbers. Fractions of a % of people fallling down stairs. But they will. Probably from cheap chinese crap that leaves the pins on the plug at 240v when unplugged. It as clear as day thats going to happen. And entirely forseeable.

 

I agree. Though again, I don't think we should be making decisions about what is allowed based on people doing things that are explicitly not allowed.

 

UK based sellers are required to ensure the products they sell meet UK standards*. If you buy an electrical product from a UK seller that doesn't meet regs they are liable. We shouldn't set regs based on the possibility of gray/black market imports.

 

As I've said I think the requirements we have already discussed are sufficient to avoid serious harm. Compliant products are unlikely to cause deaths. These products have been available and legal in Germany for a while so we should have good data to see if there are any gaps that need adjusting in regs for here (though we will tend to follow EU regs anyway) and so long as decision makers are taking this evidence into account and setting standards based on them then I doubt they would have liability either.

 

* If you import yourself then you are liable to check compliance.

[JohnMo]

5 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

people will die, that might not otherwise die. Lots? No. Tiny numbers. Fractions of a % of people fallling down stairs. But they will. Probably from cheap chinese crap that leaves the pins on the plug at 240v when unplugged. It as clear as day thats going to happen. And entirely forseeable.

Sorry you can't build the rules around the idiots that will ignore them anyway.  And just circumvent what rules are there anyway.  The only way to that is shutdown the internet and tax all products that come via mail from overseas with a huge surcharge, to make it not cost effective.  That's not happening is it

[Roger440]

6 minutes ago, -rick- said:

 

I agree. Though again, I don't think we should be making decisions about what is allowed based on people doing things that are explicitly not allowed.

 

UK based sellers are required to ensure the products they sell meet UK standards*. If you buy an electrical product from a UK seller that doesn't meet regs they are liable. We shouldn't set regs based on the possibility of gray/black market imports.

 

As I've said I think the requirements we have already discussed are sufficient to avoid serious harm. Compliant products are unlikely to cause deaths. These products have been available and legal in Germany for a while so we should have good data to see if there are any gaps that need adjusting in regs for here (though we will tend to follow EU regs anyway) and so long as decision makers are taking this evidence into account and setting standards based on them then I doubt they would have liability either.

 

* If you import yourself then you are liable to check compliance.

 

Uk sellers are indeed liable, but the reality is, there is no enfocement of regulation, and how succesful do you think you will be sueing Amazon?

 

In reality they are not liable. That is a real problem that needs addressing. But wont be. Given that we dont, what is the point of having any regulations?

 

Ill disagree on your last paragraph. People will die. Even using proper stuff, because, stuff goes wrong. A fundamental principle of our regs is that plugs are never live, only recessed pins can be live. This product turns that principle on its head.

 

[Roger440]

7 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Sorry you can't build the rules around the idiots that will ignore them anyway.  And just circumvent what rules are there anyway.  The only way to that is shutdown the internet and tax all products that come via mail from overseas with a huge surcharge, to make it not cost effective.  That's not happening is it

 

Not really. Thats what trading standards used to do. They just dont do it any more. 

 

You could prosecute everyone doing it quite easily as the internet tells you who they are. And we should.

 

Interestingly, the DVSA enforcement team do exactly that with non compliant automotive products. And have taken people like euro car parts to task. So it can be done. Its never been easier to identify those not complying.

 

As i said, i think in the other thread, i bought a transformer, from Amazon that has exposed 240v terminals. I didnt know that until i got it out of the box. And i do know what im looking at. Personally, i find that completely unacceptable.

 

[JohnMo]

3 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

plugs are never live, only recessed pins can be live. This product turns that principle on its head

Sorry this is just wrong and getting boring.  How are the plugs live, the output from the solar is zero without a mains input, so how do you have live pins?  Or are people falling over and burying there heads in the pins?

[-rick-]

10 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Uk sellers are indeed liable, but the reality is, there is no enfocement of regulation, and how succesful do you think you will be sueing Amazon?

 

Sure, but that is a separate issue. We as a country need to start actually fixing the issues rather than trying to work around them by banning things outright. (Which still doesn't solve the problem because people will still get and use them anyway).

 

Other countries manage this much better than we do.

 

10 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Ill disagree on your last paragraph. People will die. Even using proper stuff, because, stuff goes wrong. A fundamental principle of our regs is that plugs are never live, only recessed pins can be live. This product turns that principle on its head.

 

I haven't read the regs but I very much doubt that the regs allow for a plug to become live without an active current for anything more than a fraction of a second (and only then if there was a signal immediately prior that disappeared - eg power cut or socket pulled from wall).

 

Either case I don't see how you could be in that situation while at the same time holding the plug.

 

Others have raised the possibility of two systems plugged in sensing the other as 'mains' and hence continuing to work. I don't know how possible this is for systems designed with the current regs but it's certainly something that I think can be designed out and even in this situation the live pins will be actively buried in the socket, not in human contact.

 

Electronic inverters can assess the mains waveforms thousands of times a second and with each sample detect a wide range of issues so any of these safety issues should be addressable if they havent already been (I suspect they already have been).

 

Edit to add: A standard RCD cuts the current within 30ms of a leak to earth being detected. This is deemed sufficient to save someones life who touches live conductors. An inverter should be able to switch off much quicker than this if it detects any unusual conditions. It would be relatively unimpactful to efficiency to set the cut off conditions much tighter than RCDs as a cut off for a couple of cycles would not be noticed by anyone using the system (given the system should only ever operate when the mains is live).

Edited 4 hours ago by -rick-

[Roger440]

10 minutes ago, -rick- said:

 

Sure, but that is a separate issue. We as a country need to start actually fixing the issues rather than trying to work around them by banning things outright. (Which still doesn't solve the problem because people will still get and use them anyway).

 

Other countries manage this much better than we do.

 

 

I haven't read the regs but I very much doubt that the regs allow for a plug to become live without an active current for anything more than a fraction of a second (and only then if there was a signal immediately prior that disappeared - eg power cut or socket pulled from wall).

 

Either case I don't see how you could be in that situation while at the same time holding the plug.

 

Others have raised the possibility of two systems plugged in sensing the other as 'mains' and hence continuing to work. I don't know how possible this is for systems designed with the current regs but it's certainly something that I think can be designed out and even in this situation the live pins will be actively buried in the socket, not in human contact.

 

Electronic inverters can assess the mains waveforms thousands of times a second and with each sample detect a wide range of issues so any of these safety issues should be addressable if they havent already been (I suspect they already have been).

 

Edit to add: A standard RCD cuts the current within 30ms of a leak to earth being detected. This is deemed sufficient to save someones life who touches live conductors. An inverter should be able to switch off much quicker than this if it detects any unusual conditions. It would be relatively unimpactful to efficiency to set the cut off conditions much tighter than RCDs as a cut off for a couple of cycles would not be noticed by anyone using the system (given the system should only ever operate when the mains is live).

 

Of course the regs dont allow for live pins. Thats my point.

 

However, things go wrong, especially electronics. Yes it "should" cut of the power if it doesnt see "mains power". Should is doing a lot of heavy lifting on a device thats likely sub £200.

 

Comparing it to an RCD isnt really relevant. The idea of the RCD is that its a back up for when something else has already gone (badly) wrong. Theres no circumstance in which live conductors are available to touch under UK regs. 

 

With a plug in panel, if it doesnt detect the mains power has gone, the pins are live. Single point of failure. 

 

Going to a situation of single point of failure is a significant step backwards. The results of which, as ive already said, are forseeable.

 

 

[dpmiller]

14 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

With a plug in panel, if it doesnt detect the mains power has gone, the pins are live. Single point of failure. 

But it absolutely *will* detect this. And event if it somehow doesn't, remember that inverters are a. current sources and b. have hard voltage limits.

Remove the load by unplugging and the current will immediately drop to zero and the voltage rise to beyond the limit voltage. Redundancy...