Proposed changes to Permitted Development rights for small wind turbine

[Dillsue]

50 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

Any changes to the rules would need to put the onus on the 'installer' to use MCS certified - and tested - equipment.  This is one of the reasons why a dedicated install by an electrician is important - no Sparky will allow a dangerous installation if it means that he might be fined or lose certification.  

Unless you want to join one of the export payment schemes AFAIK there's currently no requirement for MCS certification or testing for anything....products or installations??

[Dillsue]

56 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

Plug-in solar is fitted in a socket right next to an outlet with an EV plugged in on a faulty granny charger for 8 hours, (or some faulty high load device is plugged in nearby). 

The PV panels will be supplying power to the nearest local load, which in this scenario could be near or above the 2.5mm cable rating for a sustained period.

?? Maybe I'm missing something but a faulty anything is limited to 13amp by the fuse in the plug which is way less than 2.5mm cable can carry. Any adjacent plug in solar is only offsetting what that faulty load would draw from the consumer unit but is again limited to 13amp by its plug? If plug in solar is limited to 800watt then it's hard to see a problem?? Unless.......

 

If you plugged in multiple plug in solar units then you could have a problem if you also plug in multiple high loads, that's where the regulators might have a problem but thats the same problem Europe will already be dealing with??

[sgt_woulds]

OPSS has reported some cheap chinese chargers that have been found without fuses fitted. 

 

A proper granny charger plug should have a fuse and a thermister to limit plug heat, but again, what you order off TEMU might only look fine on the surface.  

 

Granny chargers already cause scorching damage to sockets (which are not rated for 10a continous loads for 8 hours plus).  What if the P-I-S was plugged into a double socket with the car?  (I'm sure you can think of other examples!  Nothing exceeds mankinds seemingly boundless capacity for stupidity)

 

Think of this another way.  What if its a long ring circuit, with lots of high load items (plug in stove oven, microwave, kettle, car charger, porn server, etc, etc), all switched on at the same time.  Each load is cumulative even if they are only drawing less than 10 amps each. 

 

Without P-I-S that high cumulative draw will be detected by the mcb.  With P-I-S it could be be 'situation normal' whilst the cables burn out in the walls. 

[DamonHD]

3 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

 

Not necessarily.  The trouble with this type of product is that it encourages a race to the bottom with consumers used to buying the cheapest offer on Amazon for a no-name panel and inverter combo.

 

Back in 2012 I installed some supposedly compliant (G83/2) Chinese Renasolar Micro inverters on a couple of old panels on my garage.  Renasolar, even back then, was not some fly-by-night chinese company.  I was literally shocked to discover that, when I isolated the mains to change a lighting circuit, the little barstools kept generating for a good 5 to 10 minutes after the mains was switched off.  More of a UPS than full islanding, but certainly not compliant with any regulations then or now.

 

 

 

Do you think home insurers would pay out for a fire that was caused—or allowed to be caused—by the operation of a plug‑in solar array?  Where would the onus of fault lie?

Your experience was nasty, and we should hold responsible the suppliers and importers of faulty dangerous goods.

 

There is a thorough write-up here, BTW:

 

https://solarenergyconcepts.co.uk/post/plug-in-solar-uk/

[Dillsue]

7 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

OPSS has reported some cheap chinese chargers that have been found without fuses fitted. 

 

A proper granny charger plug should have a fuse and a thermister to limit plug heat, but again, what you order off TEMU might only look fine on the surface.  

 

Granny chargers already cause scorching damage to sockets (which are not rated for 10a continous loads for 8 hours plus).  What if the P-I-S was plugged into a double socket with the car?  (I'm sure you can think of other examples!  Nothing exceeds mankinds seemingly boundless capacity for stupidity)

 

Think of this another way.  What if its a long ring circuit, with lots of high load items (plug in stove oven, microwave, kettle, car charger, porn server, etc, etc), all switched on at the same time.  Each load is cumulative even if they are only drawing less than 10 amps each. 

 

Without P-I-S that high cumulative draw will be detected by the mcb.  With P-I-S it could be be 'situation normal' whilst the cables burn out in the walls. 

A single <800w plug in solar is going to put around 3 amps into the circuit which the circuits MCB/fuse wont see. I dont know what the max a typical ring is rated for but I'd be certain there's enough difference between the max capacity and a typical 32amp MCB for the cable to safely absorb the 3 amps. I don't see why your spark was fretting about a single plug in solar and an adjacent load?

 

Obviously if you're buying cheap stuff from non EU suppliers then you take on board the risk of using potentially unregulated stuff.....but that's as we are now with a whole load of dodgy imported stuff.

 

Don't know where the granny charger that scorched a socket came from but the few weeks we used ours before a proper charger went in, and there weren't any problems. The plug was warm after a few hours but nowhere near damaging anything. Was the one your referring to a cheap import?

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Dillsue

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

OPSS has reported some cheap chinese chargers that have been found without fuses fitted. 

 

A proper granny charger plug should have a fuse and a thermister to limit plug heat, but again, what you order off TEMU might only look fine on the surface.  

 

Granny chargers already cause scorching damage to sockets (which are not rated for 10a continous loads for 8 hours plus).  What if the P-I-S was plugged into a double socket with the car?  (I'm sure you can think of other examples!  Nothing exceeds mankinds seemingly boundless capacity for stupidity)

 

Think of this another way.  What if its a long ring circuit, with lots of high load items (plug in stove oven, microwave, kettle, car charger, porn server, etc, etc), all switched on at the same time.  Each load is cumulative even if they are only drawing less than 10 amps each. 

 

Without P-I-S that high cumulative draw will be detected by the mcb.  With P-I-S it could be be 'situation normal' whilst the cables burn out in the walls. 

 

Theres heaps of completely non compliant electrical stuff for sale. Most of it on Amazon. Simply doesnt comply with anything.

 

No one cares, certainly not the authorities.

 

Its worse still where its shipped direct to the consumer from China

 

I bought a transformer to run a cheap chinese heater in the poly tunnel. The 240v input terminals dont even have a cover! A 10th of the price of anything compliant though. Ill make a cover. But i wouldnt put it in my house though.

 

As per discission above, clearly one panel doesnt represent much risk, but you know people will buy 5 or 10 and plug them all in, rendering the circuit fuse or breaker worthless. Equally, how is the export limit then controlled?

 

[sgt_woulds]

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Theres heaps of completely non compliant electrical stuff for sale. Most of it on Amazon. Simply doesnt comply with anything.

 

 

 

The market is driven by cost not quality.  People searching for the lowest price know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

As per discission above, clearly one panel doesnt represent much risk, but you know people will buy 5 or 10 and plug them all in, rendering the circuit fuse or breaker worthless. Equally, how is the export limit then controlled?

 

 

 

Exactly.     There are lots of sockets in a house = I can plug in as many panels as I like.

 

The uninitiated will think 'hmmm, AC panels are cheap' = 'I can take my house offgrid' (= 999 !!! 😞).  

 

Are plug-in solar users expected to understand how electricity works?

[sgt_woulds]

12 hours ago, Dillsue said:

Don't know where the granny charger that scorched a socket came from but the few weeks we used ours before a proper charger went in, and there weren't any problems. The plug was warm after a few hours but nowhere near damaging anything. Was the one your referring to a cheap import?

 

 

 

Exactly my point.  You just assume nothing bad is happening because you cant see it.  Yet...!   Which is down to dumb luck. 

 

This kind of ignorance is exactly what will be applied to PIS.  

 

There are plenty of examples to be found with an interweb search, and plenty more if you talk to an electrician.

 

The point is that this is not just about what you plug in, it is about the state of your home wiring too - the stuff you cant see. 

 

It doesn't have to be dodgy DIY wiring, it can be simple wear and tear in the system (e.g. neutrals working lose over time) or lower quality or counterfeit materials used unknowingly and hidden behind the walls.

 

Even the bits you can see (like modern electrical sockets), can hide dangers until too late; charging an EV pushes the the plug and outlet right to the very limit of its capability.

 

 

To quote Jerremy Harris, the normal sequence goes something like this:

 

1. The plug gets warmer than normal, after a long period of running at high load.

2. Heat is conducted down the line pin, and transferred to the hard brass contacts in the socket.

3. Over time, the brass contacts fatigue from the heat, lose some of their springiness and so no longer make such a good contact with the plug pin.

4. This increased contact resistance causes the socket contacts and the plug pin to get hotter, as now there are two heat sources.

5. The build up of heat further reduces the socket contact spring pressure, increasing contact resistance still further and making things even hotter.

6. If left uncontrolled, then the area around the line pin will break down and char, and there may be enough heat transferred to the thermoplastic that many plugs are made from to cause it to distort, perhaps even catch fire.

 

 

For years, plugs were all made from thermoset plastics, and this gave two big advantages. The obvious one is that they don't melt and distort when they get hot, the less obvious one is that they provide an early warning when they get hot, as most of them give off a pretty strong fishy smell when really hot.

 

Modern sockets are now made with thermoplastics that are more brittle and don't give off any warning smells.  By the time you see scorching of the plastics, hidden damage has already happened internaly.

 

 

Why granny chargers are dangerous and fatalities will occur before they’re banned - Norwich Electricians

 

Granny charger fire warning | General Chat Forum | MGEVs.com MG EVs Community

 

EV charging cables: how safe are aftermarket leads? | What Car?

 

 

 

[-rick-]

2 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

Exactly.     There are lots of sockets in a house = I can plug in as many panels as I like.

 

The uninitiated will think 'hmmm, AC panels are cheap' = 'I can take my house offgrid' (= 999 !!! 😞).  

 

Are plug-in solar users expected to understand how electricity works?

 

Where do you draw the line though? Just because someone CAN harm themselves (or others) with a product doesn't mean we shouldn't offer it for sale. 

 

Mandate clear instructions, mandate regular reminders on bills and questions when people change energy suppliers. Make sure information is regularly shared publicly but don't say 'oh someone might do something stupid with this so we won't offer it for sale'. The products will still be available, idiots will still buy them and the safety of those products will be less than if you had sensible rules around them rather than saying no.

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Just because someone CAN harm themselves (or others) with a product doesn't mean we shouldn't offer it for sale. 

Just like the NRA want.

I suspect the they would oppose PID in Fairfax VA though.

 

But you are totally correct, we accept about 1,700 deaths a year on our roads, 75% being males.

So get the girls to unplug them.

[sgt_woulds]

The potential harm from someone 'doing something stupid' is not limited to that person.

 

A house fire wcould also involve family members, visitors, neighbours, and members of the emergency services.

 

We already have a way of ameliorating the potential dangers of PV installations.  It is by having a dedicated circuit installed by a qualified electrician.  

[sgt_woulds]

Ha! I had thought of the gun argument, but didn't go there...

[-rick-]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Just like the NRA want.

I suspect the they would oppose PID in Fairfax VA though.

 

But you are totally correct, we accept about 1,700 deaths a year on our roads, 75% being males.

So get the girls to unplug them.

 

We have to draw a line somewhere. At some point the attempts to make things safer just make things impossible, unaffordable or impractical. Germany now has 1 million on these plug in devices, I expect thats enough to generate some fairly robust safety data to see how dangerous plug in solar actually is. I suspect not very much at all.

 

6 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

The potential harm from someone 'doing something stupid' is not limited to that person.

 

No, and we have to draw a line somewhere, but in this case my strong suspicion is that the products are safe enough.

 

6 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

A house fire wcould also involve family members, visitors, neighbours, and members of the emergency services.

 

Sure, the question is how likely is it to happen? Can you address the bulk of risks through safety/product standards and public information.

 

6 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

We already have a way of ameliorating the potential dangers of PV installations.  It is by having a dedicated circuit installed by a qualified electrician.  

 

And that increases the cost 10x. Are the safety risks of plug in solar (when limited to 800w) sufficient to justify that? I argue not.

 

Edit to add: I say 10x because as soon as you start getting installers involved whats the point of a tiny system? You end up with a bigger one and before you know it you are at 10x cost. The whole point of these systems is that you can buy them as a renter. Put them in for a short time and then take them with you when you move. This doesn't work if you need to get the landlord + electricitians involved.

Edited 43 minutes ago by -rick-