Help! How can we avoid trickle vents on a Jacobean cottage reno?

[Amberella]

Gosh! Turns out I'm a bit nervous about posting - never having done it before - but I really hope that some of you lovely people can help me. Please be patient if I don't give all the right info! 🙂 Basically, my husband and I have a tiny cottage built around 1650. It is not listed. The current windows are UPVC double-glazed units (without trickle vents). Ever since we moved in 20 years ago, we've longed to be able to replace the windows with timber windows that would be more in keeping with the cottage, but we simply couldn't afford it. Now at last we can, but now trickle vents are required by building regs and I hate them with a passion (as well as not really wanting to pay the additional cost of having them). Even our local conservation officer agrees that they are utterly unnecessary for a cottage like ours, given that it's very old and very draughty, but building regs aren't very nuanced and they state that all replacement windows have to have them! If our cottage was listed or in a conservation area we would be OK, but it isn't either of those things and my husband is dead against listing it. So here's the question - is there any way we can avoid the dreaded trickle vents without going rogue and falling foul of the building regs? Or are we doomed? Any advice/help would be very welcome. Thank you!

[Redbeard]

51 minutes ago, Amberella said:

but now trickle vents are required by building regs

 

Hello! I am not sure that is true. Decent (intentional, not accidental) ventilation *is* required by the Regs. Ask anyone on here with MVHR whether they have trickle vents!!

 

You will, however, have to have some vents somewhere if not in the window frames. Search on here for decentralised mechanical extract ventilation (dMEV).

 

I have not got chapter and verse to hand for my assertion, but if no-one comes up with it in the next few hours (I bet they will!) I will have a look for a source.

[Spinny]

I typed 'who can authorise a deviation from building regulations into google' and the AI said...

Quote

A local authority can authorise a deviation from building regulations through a determination process, where they consider whether a requirement can be relaxed or dispensed with for your project. If the local authority refuses, you can appeal to the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government for a final decision. 

 

[Redbeard]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/appHelp! How can we avoid trickle vents on a Jacobean cottage reno?roved-document-f-volume-1-dwellings-frequently-asked-questions#can-background-ventilators-be-installed-through-a-wall-to-meet-the-part-f-requirements-instead-of-installing-trickle-ventilators-in-windows

Can background ventilators be installed through a wall to meet the Part F requirements, instead of installing trickle ventilators in windows?

Ventilation can be provided through any appropriate means. Installing a background ventilator through a wall that provides the equivalent areas described in Approved Document F, volume 1 can be an acceptable route to compliance.

 

I realise your thread is entitled 'Help! How can we avoid trickle vents on a Jacobean cottage reno?'  but as it goes on to talk about windows I assumed you meant 'trickle vents *in windows*. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you confirm?

 

If you'd be happy with 'trickle' vents in walls then you don't need anyone to authorise a deviation 'cause there wouldn't be one.

Edited Thursday at 18:20 by Redbeard
Cross-referencing to thread above

[ETC]

PIV.

[Iceverge]

Welcome, welcome. It's a nice bunch in here, hope we can help. 

 

You should have some proper continuous ventilation. A couple of dMEV fans would be cheap and tick the box. People often forget that these old houses had a fire going 20hrs per day pulling fresh air through the house. 

 

Trickle vents may not be the only option. You could have wall or ceiling vents. 

[Redbeard]

2 minutes ago, ETC said:

PIV.

 

Does that not depend on how air-tight the house is? It may be reasonable to assume 'not very', but AIUI PIV (Positive Input Ventilation) relies on drawing air in the loft and pushing it out through 'gaps'. No gaps, no functioning PIV?

[Iceverge]

 

 

Just swap out the old rattly bathroom extractor for one of these. I have one in my office. 

 

The only thing that's wrong with them is that they're too cheap. If they cost 10 times as much people would think they were excellent. 

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Amberella said:

is there any way we can avoid the dreaded trickle vents without going rogue and falling foul of the building regs?

Find a an installer who is a FENSA / CERTASS / Assure member who agrees that you don't need them because your cottage is drafty enough.

 

However, adequate ventilation is necessary to maintain a healthy internal air quality and to avoid condensation & mold; the dMEV fans mentioned by @Iceverge would also be my choice if there is any doubt about that.

 

It's also vital that any solid fuel fires / wood burners have proper dedicated ventilation or you risk carbon monoxide poisoning, or worse.

[Amberella]

21 hours ago, ETC said:

PIV.

Yes. We've been thinking about PIV but have had conflicting advice. If we could just put it in the loft with one vent onto the landing - as one installer suggested - then it would be fine, but another window installer told us we would have to have ducts running to every room and that would look awful so we're not doing that! If anyone knows the truth of this I'd be grateful!

[Amberella]

19 hours ago, Mike said:

Find a an installer who is a FENSA / CERTASS / Assure member who agrees that you don't need them because your cottage is drafty enough.

 

However, adequate ventilation is necessary to maintain a healthy internal air quality and to avoid condensation & mold; the dMEV fans mentioned by @Iceverge would also be my choice if there is any doubt about that.

 

It's also vital that any solid fuel fires / wood burners have proper dedicated ventilation or you risk carbon monoxide poisoning, or worse.

I would love to, but it's very difficult. I gather it would probably be fine to have the windows without trickle vents until/unless we're selected by FENSA/Assure for an inspection and then it would all depend on the view of that particular inspector, so 🤷‍♀️. I'm wondering if the inspector came and refused to give us a certificate how much of a problem that would really be!?

[Amberella]

20 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

 

Just swap out the old rattly bathroom extractor for one of these. I have one in my office. 

 

The only thing that's wrong with them is that they're too cheap. If they cost 10 times as much people would think they were excellent. 

Thanks so much for the kind welcome, IceVerge - do these fans go in the wall? Would we need to put one in every room? Sorry if I'm being very ignorant!!!

[Amberella]

21 hours ago, Redbeard said:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/appHelp! How can we avoid trickle vents on a Jacobean cottage reno?roved-document-f-volume-1-dwellings-frequently-asked-questions#can-background-ventilators-be-installed-through-a-wall-to-meet-the-part-f-requirements-instead-of-installing-trickle-ventilators-in-windows

Can background ventilators be installed through a wall to meet the Part F requirements, instead of installing trickle ventilators in windows?

Ventilation can be provided through any appropriate means. Installing a background ventilator through a wall that provides the equivalent areas described in Approved Document F, volume 1 can be an acceptable route to compliance.

 

I realise your thread is entitled 'Help! How can we avoid trickle vents on a Jacobean cottage reno?'  but as it goes on to talk about windows I assumed you meant 'trickle vents *in windows*. Maybe I'm wrong. Can you confirm?

 

If you'd be happy with 'trickle' vents in walls then you don't need anyone to authorise a deviation 'cause there wouldn't be one.

Thanks, Redbeard, yes you're right - it's trickle vents in windows we're trying to avoid. Although, tbh, we'd rather avoid putting any extra holes in our house! It's draughty enough as it is! 😂

[Amberella]

21 hours ago, Spinny said:

I typed 'who can authorise a deviation from building regulations into google' and the AI said...

 

I believe this is true but the local authority are not being helpful at all!

[craig]

22 hours ago, Redbeard said:

Hello! I am not sure that is true.

it is for new builds and refurbishment/replacements when no other alternative ventilation is applied (i.e mvhr).

 

Can you avoid it?

 

1: Yes, sign a disclaimer.

2: Sign a disclaimer, then stick them on. 
 

However, they are supplied for a reason, specifically room ventilation/condensation and you run the risk of condensation/mold occurring

3: You could source a single room MVHR system that is run through the wall in each room but could prove expensive.

 

Conclusion.

 

Get the vents.

[Redbeard]

1 hour ago, Amberella said:

Thanks, Redbeard, yes you're right - it's trickle vents in windows we're trying to avoid. Although, tbh, we'd rather avoid putting any extra holes in our house! It's draughty enough as it is! 😂

 

I do fully understand that, but have spent years advising clients to design *out* the unintentional ventilation (draughts) and design *in* the intentional. Once you have vents and a couple of dMEV fans you can go mad stuffing draughts. Have a look at the Bldg Regs for the relevant cross-sectional area of ventilation you'll need. Goood luck!

[Redbeard]

2 minutes ago, craig said:

Conclusion.

 

Get the vents.

 

Agreed 'get vents' but if the OP does not want them in the windows they can be elsewhere. (and see my point above).

Edited Friday at 16:42 by Redbeard
spelling

[craig]

Exactly, windows vents are not required if alternative background ventilation exists.

[Redbeard]

1 hour ago, Amberella said:

Thanks so much for the kind welcome, IceVerge - do these fans go in the wall? Would we need to put one in every room? Sorry if I'm being very ignorant!!!

 

Yes, in the wall, and no, not in every room. The idea is you put them in the wet rooms, so that the 'pull' extracting moist air from the wet rooms *pulls in* dry air via the other rooms, so yes, trickle (window or, as preferred, wall) vents in  all or most 'dry' rooms.

[SteamyTea]

Not read all of the replies.

 

You say your cottage is small and draughty.

Can you improve the draught situation easily (windows are only as good as what they are fitted to).

Usually in old buildings it is the floor and the loft that are the problems (my old place in Weymouth had a solid floor, so no problem there, but a bad loft conversion which was a problem).

Curing uncontrolled air leakage will massively reduce the heating bills, then you can look at controlled ventilation.

Controlled ventilation can be anything from trickle vents to full mechanical ventilation and heat recovery to each room. 

Chances are you will only need something basic for kitchen and bathroom (extraction) the something in bedrooms (fresh air input).

Do you have a fireplace?

 

If you post up a basic sketch with some dimensions, I am sure a solution can be found.

 

Positive input ventilation, in an old building, can force warm, high humidity, air into the cold fabric of the building, this can cause problems with out of sight condensation.

Reducing the air leakiness helps. New windows will not, in themselves, help.

 

So step back for a while, decide if it is just the looks of the windows that you hate at this point of time, or if you want a better house overall. 

You can fit the windows next spring, it is only 6 months away.

[Amberella]

I really appreciate all the responses - and it is very interesting to see all the different points of view. I completely understand that for some people draughts are a problem and something to get rid of. @Redbeard - you would be very disappointed in us 😂, but I have to say that we love our draughty old house and we've never had a problem with damp, mould or condensation (we've lived here 20 years) @craig - maybe because of the draughts! 😂 In any case, we don't have trickle vents now, so can't imagine the condensation situation will be drastically changed if we were to put in new windows that also don't have trickle vents. I've been investigating PIV a bit more - thanks for the suggestion @ETC - and it seems like that could be our solution if the FENSA people were to make a fuss... Also going to do more research into fans. Thanks again everyone! You'be been so kind and helpful. I really appreciate it!

Edited Friday at 18:56 by Amberella

[marshian]

57 minutes ago, Amberella said:

I really appreciate all the responses - and it is very interesting to see all the different points of view. I completely understand that for some people draughts are a problem and something to get rid of. @Redbeard - you would be very disappointed in us 😂, but I have to say that we love our draughty old house and we've never had a problem with damp, mould or condensation (we've lived here 20 years) @craig - maybe because of the draughts! 😂 In any case, we don't have trickle vents now, so can't imagine the condensation situation will be drastically changed if we were to put in new windows that also don't have trickle vents. I've been investigating PIV a bit more - thanks for the suggestion @ETC - and it seems like that could be our solution if the FENSA people were to make a fuss... Also going to do more research into fans. Thanks again everyone! You'be been so kind and helpful. I really appreciate it!

 

I have trickle vents in a few SUDG windows added post 1995 which was when the original SUDG widows were fitted - I bloody hate them for two reasons

 

1.  Useless from a noise suppression perspective (I live near a busy road the main bedroom when the house was extended was fitted with a TV as the window had to be replaced)

 

2. I already have a ventilation strategy (I have a PIV in the hall and extract fans in both bathrooms and kitchen) all the windows with TV's are closed anyway and I have no condensation issues at any time in the year 

 

If I was to replace the all the windows again a PIV is not enough under the current regs to avoid TV's - MVHR is but I don't want or need to fit that because the PIV does what I need.

 

There is a clause which enables you to replace windows without TV's and that is provided only a certain percentage of window are replaced (less than 30% from memory)

 

So I'd do all the windows in 3 bite sized chunks each time stipulating with the supplier that under the current legislation/regs I do not want TV's to be fitted to the windows on each occasion

 

Any supplier refusing to do this wouldn't get the work and I'm pretty damn sure very few window suppliers would want to turn down the work as a result of my work around. 

 

 

[ETC]

5 hours ago, Amberella said:

Yes. We've been thinking about PIV but have had conflicting advice. If we could just put it in the loft with one vent onto the landing - as one installer suggested - then it would be fine, but another window installer told us we would have to have ducts running to every room and that would look awful so we're not doing that! If anyone knows the truth of this I'd be grateful!

One or two depending on size into the loft. No ductwork - 10mm off the bottom of all doors.

[mickeych]

Agreed with @ETC we tranformed a damp badly insulated old stable conversion with a decent PIV (with heater for the colder weather). In the loft no external vents just 1 internal vent on the landing. MVHR (which we have in our main conversion) is what the poorly informed window sales person was talking about.

 

[Spinny]

Our building notice was obtained just before the regs change in '22 so we didn't have to have TVs except where we wished. One window supplier fitted windows with TVs even where we had requested no TVs - they swore blind they couldn't supply windows without them as they were now a universal part of window manufacture.

 

Living in a cold and draughty house we couldn't imagine why anyone would want to punch holes to the outside. Now I wonder whether we should have had more vents, and why the Architect didn't go into ventilation and solar gain aspects.

 

Not sure what to expect when we get to turn the kitchen extractor on full. I guess we can open the rooflight as needed as long as it doesn't rain at less than 5deg from the horizontal.