Ceiling Deflection

[Wolfman310]

Hi there. 
 

Need some advise regarding the following please… 
 

Whilst in the shower I noticed what I thought was the ceiling having a slight bow in it, and I was right. 
 

It’s a bungalow so ground floor ceiling in to the loft. 
 

it is circa deflecting 2cm and is in the location of a hot water cylinder that OSO came and installed circa October last year. 
 

I am concerned just how much it has moved especially as it is enough for me to see whilst showering. 
 

Do these things get to a point and then settle or should I be going back to OSO? 
 

The large timber with the  joist hangers were already present  and had a 170ltr Telford cylinder on it and some other useless timber. 

the smaller timbers supporting the rear of the cylinder span a smaller number of timbers and is what OSO installed for their 250ltr cylinder. 
 

I think the timbers they installed are the ones putting the strain as they aren’t spreading the weight across enough and is roughly in the location. 
 

Any views as i think it may just get worse?
 

if so i will need to ask OSO to rectify and need to support it better. (They were told about my concerns beforehand as a quote from telford identified the need to support the rear of the cylinder and this was passed on to Oso) 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:11 by Wolfman310
Add photos that were missing

[Nickfromwales]

Ouch. Yes, defo an issue, but I’d bet the deflection started before this and has now just got worse. 
 

What they should have done is butt timbers to that large timber (running perpendicular) and screwed them together with construction screws, and then had those perpendicular timbers head off to meet the wall plate, or at least sit on 2-4 of the smaller original roof timbers.

 

Needs sorting sooner than later, and afaic that timber work they’ve done is utter shite, placing the load directly onto one small existing timber is appalling workmanship. 
 

Did OSO do it or a sub contractor? 

[Wolfman310]

Thanks for your quick reply, really appreciated. Is what I suspected too. 

 

I will contact them first thing Monday morning.  
 

I suspect you’re right, the deflection was only very small beforehand as the original cylinder was almost fully on the large timber which spans a long way across. Wasn’t the screws popping or cracks beforehand either. 

 

The timber they have installed crosses maybe 3 existing ceiling timbers, but if they had gone one longer across is a supporting wall (bottom left of the cylinder you can see the brickwork)   with the brickwork supporting the roof which wouldn’t have hindered. 
 

it was Oso themselves which is frustrating.

 

They sent out the lead engineer beforehand to see what they were working with due to my concerns as they originally thought it would be ok with just the one large timber and I said it wouldn’t. 

the lead engineer came and installed the timbers, one length which was cut in the roof in half and the two nailed together as was left and can see the nail popping through. 
 

two less experienced engineers then did the install once he had finished and the experienced one left for another job. 
 

hopefully Oso won’t argue and just fix it properly. I could see them suggesting it isn’t their problem. 

 

[Nickfromwales]

5 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

I could see them suggesting it isn’t their problem

If they do, tell them it'll be your insurers who are contacting them next! Not sure how the ceiling will be returned to its original position (flat)?

[Wolfman310]

I am hoping they do the right thing. 
 

I think the existing timbers will have to be removed and replaced to straighten it back out. 
 

Fingers crossed, will update with progress. 


 

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Wolfman310 said:

I am hoping they do the right thing. 
 

I think the existing timbers will have to be removed and replaced to straighten it back out. 
 

Fingers crossed, will update with progress. 


 

 

I think if they address this fully, then you’d just ask them to cover the removal and reinstatement costs of the cylinder to allow a carpenter to come in and re-twang the ceiling rafters (probably still doable without pulling down the ceiling) and tbh I’d expect you’d have to bear the cost of the carpentry there; this was very likely already on its journey back to the centre of the earth, so best to be reasonable and pragmatic when approaching OSO imho.

 

Ask the carpenter for additional cost to create the proper platform for the cylinder, and ask OSO to meet that cost in isolation.
 

The cylinder will need to be removed (emptied and moved to the other side of the attic) and reinstated, so ask OSO to provide a plumber to remove and reinstate.

 

Oh, expect to have to fill and sand / repaint the ceiling, but tbh it’d be cheaper and a far better job to have a plasterer in to scrim tape the cracks / joints, PVA it, and then re skim it before a fresh coat of paint.

[Wolfman310]

Some great points again, thanks for this, has really helped.
 

The secondary works to the bathroom I would just take the hit on as it will be refit at some point anyway as it needs to become a wet room for our son so would be a fair offer for that to be ignored or like you say get it skimmed. 
 

Good idea about a carpenter, will certainly be suggesting this. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

20 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

They sent out the lead engineer

Probably not an engineer.

20 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

two less experienced engineers

Probably Level 3 technicians at best.

 

It seems odd that that to fit PV panels, though the MCS system, a qualified structural engineer has to sign of the roof structure, but to put quarter of a tonne of hot water above people needs nothing.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Probably not an engineer.

Probably Level 3 technicians at best.

 

It seems odd that that to fit PV panels, though the MCS system, a qualified structural engineer has to sign of the roof structure, but to put quarter of a tonne of hot water above people needs nothing.

Yup. Crazy. People have been dying from collapsed, boiled CWS tanks for a long time, so it’s not as if the risk isn’t there.

 

This is why I usually do a day on structural carpentry, including boarding for access and so we can work safely, upgrading / adding insulation where we’re covering voids, and adding service lighting etc, as these jobs should be taken seriously and done properly.

 

Thos one just looks like a hit and run, which (from a major player) seems pretty poor tbh.

 

Let us know how you get on. 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

to put quarter of a tonne of hot water above people needs nothing

It is worrying indeed. 

Fortunately we Engineeers (capital letter but not a protected title) include quite a lot of overdesign for unforeseen loads, including idiocy. Hence the ceiling  has deflected but not fallen down yet.

 

But a certain amount of intelligence and knowledge is expected of any trade, and they are liable and must not only straighten the ceiling but ensure that the roof remains strong enough for wind, snow, storage. 

They should be getting either the original designer or another to report and advise.  

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

It is worrying indeed. 

Fortunately we Engineeers (capital letter but not a protected title) include quite a lot of overdesign for unforeseen loads, including idiocy. Hence the ceiling  has deflected but not fallen down yet.

 

But a certain amount of intelligence and knowledge is expected of any trade, and they are liable and must not only straighten the ceiling but ensure that the roof remains strong enough for wind, snow, storage. 

They should be getting either the original designer or another to report and advise.  

Would that not fall between the original installer of the since removed smaller UVC, and OSO, and require an interesting ‘debate’ about who caused what damage / deflection and when…….

A hiding to nothing imho.

 

[SteamyTea]

8 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

People have been dying from collapsed, boiled CWS tanks for a long time, so it’s not as if the risk isn’t there.

Was one down here, but not that recently.

https://www.building.co.uk/news/hse-issues-boiler-warning-after-scalding-deaths/3092050.article

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Would that not fall between the original installer of the since removed smaller UVC, and OSO, and require an interesting ‘debate’ about who caused what damage / deflection and when

If it was at work, the the Health and Safety Act states that 'you are responsible for your own, and other peoples' safety'.

I am sure there is a similar statement for doing work for people, vicarious liability is complicated though.

[Nickfromwales]

27 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If it was at work, the the Health and Safety Act states that 'you are responsible for your own, and other peoples' safety'.

I am sure there is a similar statement for doing work for people, vicarious liability is complicated though.

That mostly refers to “whilst the works are being undertaken” methinks.

 

Poor workmanship is one for small claims here, but too much ambiguity over who did what / when did this start going wrong etc. 

 

Bottom line is, OSO should have done a report first to show deflection, then put in a request for the client to get a qualified carpenter in to undertake the work in anticipation, then they come and fit the cylinder. They (expletive deleted)ed up massively here, so it is true that they should offer to correct the whole problem, as a gesture of goodwill.

 

Let’s see what they say / offer in compensation etc. 

[Wolfman310]

I have tracked down some original names and I dealt with the service and warranty manager. 
 

So will go back to him I think and explain. 
 

 Not sure it was worth over £2K in hindsight.

[Nickfromwales]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing....... That's not a terrible price btw, if it was a great job obvs!

[Wolfman310]

Yeh, it was £600 cheaper than the equivalent Telford which also needed the expansion tanks on top too so in that respect wasn’t too bad. 
 

Telford weren’t very good at all and were disappointed in them. We only moved here in October 2023 so been fixing issues in a 1950’s bungalow. 
 

The previous Telford was only 10 years old but hadn’t been registered or serviced it turned out. Last year when we tried to service it with Telford and paid for the service, they came and refused as it was leaking and the welds were failing. 

they accepted that whether it was registered or serviced would have made no difference to it failing but would not give any discount or goodwill gesture. 
 

not that they had too but wanted them to stand by their product more especially as it would have made little difference. 
 

I am hoping Oso are going to fair better than Telford did. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

Doesn’t the whole installation look a bit shit. 
 

[Wolfman310]

It does look really shit doesn’t it? 
 

large update, am sorry. 
 

so I got hold of Oso and the service and warranty manager who I dealt with originally. 

I was not aware, but the installation was done by sub contractors, but told the best sub contractor they have and he did the works on the base and when he left  his lads did the plumbing. 
 

Interestingly I sent the same photos as in this thread and asked OSO if they think it looks a tidy job and they said no, but then allow this to happen. So they think it is a shit job too. 
 

The same guy who installed it all came out today, agreed it is the rear timbers they installed on the existing joists that are giving up, worryingly said he was surprised and thought that would hold up OK and was a good job and couldn’t believe it was failing. 
 

Told him I think at a minimum it needs two C24 timbers to the wall plate, a timber running the same direction as the large existing to pick up the two supporting walls at each end like the existing timber is (begs the question why when they are present you wouldn’t and leave it hanging off 3 ceiling joists on that end) and that a carpenter needs to erect it properly. 

 

said he thought the cracks and bow in the ceiling is my issue for when I decorate and would straighten up mostly on its own. Cracking I can live with, 3 joists no as I can’t repair that if they don’t straighten out. Maybe new timbers can be installed and the bowed joists can be screwed to that to shore them up. 
 

Agreed they need to fix it, next is how and who. 

is a shame as I wanted an accumulator installed as water flow/pressure is awful in the morning but only place that could go is up there as well, one step too far it would seem. 

[Nickfromwales]

Who invoiced you? Subby or OSO?

 

If you want an accumulator you can bolt a frame to the brick wall and mount it on to that. Local steel stockist should be able to fab something for you with ease, and then just bolt in place. Entire weight supported by masonry; I usually do outriggers to rest on timbers too, to help out, but would need more pics and details to advise. That’s doable.

 

If OSO billed you, they need to put it right and you should only be dealing with them; after they middle-man’d you out of your money. If you went to a local all the money would have gone on the job, not have got split between the guys and OSO……

 

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, Wolfman310 said:

would straighten up mostly on its own. 

No it won't. If i am following this fully, they are proposing adding strength after the event. That does not return the bow to horizontal. 

[Wolfman310]

All done through Oso.
Though they seem desperate for the original guy to fix because I think it means they can hand responsibility back and not be bothered. They were paid, their problem I think to resolve. Oso were meant to be calling me back today but didn’t bother so I will be calling them tomorrow. 
 

I will get some photos of the space if that’s OK so you can see what’s occurring and space for an accumulator, I don’t think of using the wall section the roof sits on. 
 

 

 

[Wolfman310]

3 hours ago, saveasteading said:

No it won't. If i am following this fully, they are proposing adding strength after the event. That does not return the bow to horizontal. 

Yep, indeed. 
All to be removed, new frame to be decided but is what’s needed and then put back and replumbed. 
 

the ceiling he didn’t want to mention until I said about what’s going to happen with the ceiling. 
 

Funnily, he said once the strain is removed from the joists it will deflect back in to place. 
 

he said the crack in the ceiling would then close up and would be minimal. 
 

I think some people just spin a load of BS and believe it them self. 
 

On Friday morning my family and I are off to the gorgeous Devon for a week so it will give them a week to figure it out. 

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Wolfman310 said:

On Friday morning my family and I are off to the gorgeous Devon for a week

Spend an extra hour in the car in the A30 and save yourself more disappointment.

Out of interest, did you pay by credit card, though I am not sure if consequential damage is covered by Section 75.

[Wolfman310]

6 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Who invoiced you? Subby or OSO?

 

If you want an accumulator you can bolt a frame to the brick wall and mount it on to that. Local steel stockist should be able to fab something for you with ease, and then just bolt in place. Entire weight supported by masonry; I usually do outriggers to rest on timbers too, to help out, but would need more pics and details to advise. That’s doable.

 

If OSO billed you, they need to put it right and you should only be dealing with them; after they middle-man’d you out of your money. If you went to a local all the money would have gone on the job, not have got split between the guys and OSO……

 

 

this is the walls, the one on the right probably not suitable as the water comes in on the left of the cylinder and runs alongside and in. 
 

the wall on the left of the cylinder would probably be better?