ASHP without Boiler Upgrade Scheme?

[timhowes]

Hi all

 

Great resource - I have enjoyed reading these forums over the past few weeks and have learned a lot. First post so please be patient (I've used the search function!)

 

We are planning a renovation and have got to the point where we are settled on converting from oil combi/rads to UFH downstairs fed by ASHP. Will be some solar PV as well.

 

I've had "help" from a few firms who plan and install greener heating systems and are MCS certified so will "save" me £7500 using the BUS. The trouble is their prices are super inflated, often justified by over-speccing.

 

I can source all the kit I need more economically, and our chosen builders will be able to fit (not savvy enough / not enough time to do DIY), What are peoples' experiences with / approaches to getting the BUS grant in this situation? Choose an MCS-certified contractor to acquire the kit from my chosen sources at zero VAT, then pay them back, pay the labour and claim the grant? Suspect it's not that simple.

 

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

 

Tim

[ProDave]

One option to look at is a number of companies will supply the kit for free (using the BUS grant) with design and paperwork, leaving you (or your builder) to install it.

 

Any competent plumber and electrician that can read the install manual will be able to install it.

[JohnMo]

Welcome

Look in to MCS self installation schemes. This where the supplier take the design responsibility, looks after the grant aspects, leave you to arrange installation, they then commission.  This means you get the grant, without MCS inflation.

 

Things to watch out for

Design temp need to be 45 degs or lower.

Single zone 

No buffer

No hydraulic separation 

 

 

 

[timhowes]

Thank you both for rapid and helpful replies. 

 

@JohnMo

"Things to watch out for" - meaning these would exempt me from grant? What's the relevance of the buffer?

[Dillsue]

Google "heat geek" and get a local guy to do detailed heat loss calcs for you. Youll need to pay for it. Be very wary of accepting a heat pump much larger than the Heat Geek calcs- running costs could be massive if you significantly oversize the heat pump

[JohnMo]

44 minutes ago, timhowes said:

Thank you both for rapid and helpful replies. 

 

@JohnMo

"Things to watch out for" - meaning these would exempt me from grant? What's the relevance of the buffer

Nothing to do with grant. You will still get the grant.

 

But,

Buffers and hydraulic separation remove efficiency, so adds to running cost, but also require secondary circulation pump. Both suffer from distortion where the heat pump sees higher flow temperatures than the heating system, this drive efficiency down.

Flow temp, the higher it is, the higher the running costs.

A single zone system allows heat pump to have the flow regime it requires, without a buffer or hydraulic seperation.

 

The cheapest way to run a heat pump, is generally always on, flowing to a open heating system on weather compensation. No thermostats.

[timhowes]

Thanks again, really helpful

 

Using https://www.theheatpumpwarehouse.co.uk/mcs-air-source-heat-pumps-guide/ for info (and as a potential source of hardware), is the process as described below? i.e.

- MCS-certified assessment of heating needs

- Installation and certification by MCS-certified installer

 

The problem I've got is falling at the first hurdle: getting assessment by MCS-certified installer seems invariably to result in excessively powerful and expensive hardware being advised (?inflated given BUS grant).

 

How do I find an MCS-certified installer who is happy to install but not supply?! 

 

[From Heat Pump Warehouse webby]

Steps in the Installation Process

1. Consultation and Assessment: Before installation, an MCS certified installer will assess your property’s heating needs to recommend the best system.
2. Installation: The heat pump is installed according to MCS standards, ensuring that everything is in compliance with regulations.
3. Certification: Once the installation is complete, the installer will register the heat pump with the MCS scheme, and you will receive a certificate of compliance.

Edited Thursday at 14:27 by timhowes

[JohnMo]

Search ASHP MCS Umbrella scheme

[Nickfromwales]

I’ve used the heat pump warehouse for the last 5 years, very good price / service tbh. 

[HughF]

Or just buy it and fit it without the grant or any mcs rubbish?

 

7kW monobloc is sub £2k if you know where to look.

[timhowes]

Excellent, thanks all.

 

Final question (until another occurs to me):

 

Since it appears I can do all this for < £7.5k, assuming I meet the MCS criteria do I still get £7.5k back from Mrs Reeves?

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, timhowes said:

Excellent, thanks all.

 

Final question (until another occurs to me):

 

Since it appears I can do all this for < £7.5k, assuming I meet the MCS criteria do I still get £7.5k back from Mrs Reeves?

You choices are get the kit and design for £0 which takes account of the grant, then pay your chaps to fit it.

 

Or ignore the grant altogether, buy the kit yourself, pay your guys to fit it and get nothing.

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, timhowes said:

 

The problem I've got is falling at the first hurdle: getting assessment by MCS-certified installer seems invariably to result in excessively powerful and expensive hardware being advised (?inflated given BUS grant).

 

How do I find an MCS-certified installer who is happy to install but not supply?! 

You won't do the second but you can avoid the oversizing (well I did anyway). 

 

In brief.  I had two full three hour surveys done both getting to 16kW.  Fortunately I paid only for one.

 

My own calculations using mcs assumptions got to 10.5kW.  Difference accounted for by double counting of room to room losses and the fact the surveys ignored fabric upgrades that I made a point of telling them about.

 

Measured loss based on 2years of smart meter readings (gas boiler) is 7kW, difference accounted for by air change rate assumptions.

 

I found 2 installers who would use my readings to infer a lower ACH than MCS default, both anyway believe ACH is often overestimated.  They aren't alone, I have since heard several installers make this observation.

 

Result was 7kW Valiant installed by mcs installer, bus grant claimed, heat pump capacity matches actual house loss.

 

In my second round of seeking quotes I provided the evidence of measured loss up front and also told them I wouldn't accept anything bigger (and also that I wouldn't accept any system separation).  That filtered out the grant harvesters and left those who genuinely want to do the right job.

 

I ended up with a local installer on Vaullants approved list (obviously other manufacturers also have approved lists, but by the time I got to this point I had pretty much decided on Vaillant).  He was already very sensible but possibly recognised he might learn a bit from the experience.  My second option was someone more distant but totally switched on, he didn't get the job solely because of distance, but nevertheless I would recommend them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 16:59 by JamesPa

[nod]

Just to add to all of the above 

We paid just short of 5 k after the grant for 11kw Echodan I couldn’t source the materials and pay someone for 5k

[JohnMo]

To add to the above - didn't bother with MCS.

I paid £800 for a heat pump specific 210L cylinder, new from City Plumbing.

£1300 for a monobloc 6kW ASHP, billy bargain from eBay.

£ a couple of hundred for cable, pipes and fittings.

Installed myself, except final electrical hookup - electrician for 1 hour, while doing other work.

 

So all in circa £2500.

 

No heating mods needed, as I have UFH.

[nod]

16 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

To add to the above - didn't bother with MCS.

I paid £800 for a heat pump specific 210L cylinder, new from City Plumbing.

£1300 for a monobloc 6kW ASHP, billy bargain from eBay.

£ a couple of hundred for cable, pipes and fittings.

Installed myself, except final electrical hookup - electrician for 1 hour, while doing other work.

 

So all in circa £2500.

 

No heating mods needed, as I have UFH.

I must be looking in the wrong places 😂The tank they used was about £1200 plus’s buffers 3 pumps etc

[JamesPa]

32 minutes ago, nod said:

must be looking in the wrong places 😂The tank they used was about £1200 plus’s buffers 3 pumps etc

Why do you want buffers and 3 pumps?

 

Unless your house is very unusual no buffering and one pump (often included in the heat pump itself) is the way to go assuming you don't want to increase running costs by 15% or more for no  benefit to anyone other than the installer.

 

Also no fancy controls unless specifically designed for heat pumps (which currently means only homely, adia or havenwise sofaik).

 

The bus can save money certainly, but not if you accept unnecessary components and/or a grossly oversized heat pump because any installation savings will quickly be consumed by increased running cost.  My personal advice is take the bus, but not at the expense of being saddled with the wrong system.  Shop around!

Edited Thursday at 17:41 by JamesPa

[sharpener]

 

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Search ASHP MCS Umbrella scheme

 

There are several seemingly decent schemes like this. One in Hants ?Andover IIRC. 

 

Also Cool Energy will design under MCS and supply for yr ppl to fit.

[nod]

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

Why do you want buffers and 3 pumps?

 

Unless your house is very unusual no buffering and one pump (often included in the heat pump itself) is the way to go assuming you don't want to increase running costs by 15% or more for no  benefit to anyone other than the installer.

 

Also no fancy controls unless specifically designed for heat pumps (which currently means only homely, adia or havenwise sofaik).

 

The bus can save money certainly, but not if you accept unnecessary components and/or a grossly oversized heat pump because any installation savings will quickly be consumed by increased running cost.  My personal advice is take the bus, but not at the expense of being saddled with the wrong system.  Shop around!

[nod]

2 pumps in the plant room 1 on the UFH manifold 

[nod]

I’d love someone to post all of that new foe 3k 

[marshian]

2 hours ago, nod said:

I’d love someone to post all of that new foe 3k 

 

Looks lovely however the point remains - why did you think you needed it?

[timhowes]

Thanks all - really helpful detail which has armed me with the necessary info to progress.

 

No doubt I'll be back for more help...

 

Cheers!

[nod]

16 minutes ago, marshian said:

 

Looks lovely however the point remains - why did you think you needed it?

Like most plumbers and heating engineers I new nothing about HPs 

 

I worked on a site in 2008 that was all HPs and these guys where fitting them and since set up on there own 

Both are Aircon backgrounds and know there stuff I was guided by them Apart from a persistent L9 fauslt that turned out to be a flo switch UFH which fitted and they set up ASHP All work fine 

 

and still waiting for someone to post the same HP as mine for a few hundred quid 😂😂

Edited Thursday at 20:53 by nod

[JoeBano]

In 2008 you would need a buffer as they were all fixed output, now with inverter driven heats pump like yours they can modulate down to the heat demand. I managed to get a grant aerona3 10kw, megaflow cylinder and a cordvari buffer for £1600. Right place right time.