Contesting final invoice - please help!

[Canski]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

They hired it in. The whole thing turned in to a mess with their sub-contractors being slow/not showing up, then they fired their own project manager - so essentially the whole project was without any oversight. The tower was obviously just forgotten about, left in a corner and just gathered dust. Now they are trying to get me to pay for their mistake. 

Good luck to them😂😂. The hire should be included in their price. 

[Tony L]

11 hours ago, saveasteading said:

disagree. They are professional bullies and don't have time* for due diligence.

 

* being a bit polite here.

If they understood contract law then they'd be lawyers or consultants.

Hey @saveasteading.  You misquoted me there. I am happy to blame the not terribly good forum software, rather than you, but I will still set the record straight: I was quoting @sb1202 & saying I disagree with his/her ludicrous ideas about debt collection companies.

[Tom]

26 minutes ago, Canski said:

Good luck to them😂😂. The hire should be included in their price. 

It was, and I paid it. This is extra for the overrun while it was safely sat in a corner covered in cobwebs. 

[sb1202]

12 hours ago, saveasteading said:

If they understood contract law then they'd be lawyers or consultants.

The company I used are lawyers as are the other companies I contacted for quotes. They all informed me of the same process. Due dilligence checks performed on debtors, nature of debt, director checks etc. This all had to be provided before they would accept and enter a service agreement with me. 

 

In the end, I got the full invoice total back plus 8 interest back dated 2 years. The interest covered their fee and left me with more than the invoice total.

[BadgerBadger]

What was your agreement with the builder? Did they give you a price at the beginning that they're now invoicing against (stage payments along the way?) or did you agree something else?

[Tom]

They priced for scaffold and tower hire as part of the work. I've paid for that. The final invoice now has this extra line on it for additional hire of tower scaffold.

Their argument is that because I passed on a message from their sparks, that they still needed the tower, that I was responsible for it going forward and I should have informed them when it was no longer needed. This all coincides with when they sacked their project manager and not replaced.

[BadgerBadger]

36 minutes ago, Tom said:

They priced for scaffold and tower hire as part of the work. I've paid for that. The final invoice now has this extra line on it for additional hire of tower scaffold.

Their argument is that because I passed on a message from their sparks, that they still needed the tower, that I was responsible for it going forward and I should have informed them when it was no longer needed. This all coincides with when they sacked their project manager and not replaced.

 

Were you paying the electricians directly or were they? It sounds very ludicrous and unreasonable, which just makes me wonder if their understanding is different from yours for some reason.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Canski said:

The hire should be included in their price. 

It's often specifically excluded. Shouldn't be but is.

But that would need to be clearly expressed in the quote or contract.

[Tom]

Hi both. The hire was definitely included. The invoice specifically said "for scaffold and tower hire" or something like that.  I paid this off long ago. The electricians, and everyone who used the tower, were employed by the main contractor. 

[Tom]

Hi again. So, it's been 2 days just about and no response from the cantractor to my queries. Their self imposed deadline of early next week is approaching at which point they have threatened to pursue legal action. Is there something legal sounding that I can send them that basically states that in the abscence of any response from them it is impossible for me to meet their deadline? I just want to make sure that, if this ever does go to law, I can show that I have been absolutely reasonable and transparrent in this whole saga.

 

I guess that, given their silence, they can clearly not answer why I should pay for broken tiles broken by their contractor, or the tower scaffold that they left on site for months on end without being used.

[Tom]

Also, the wording of their letter stating the penalty interest is this: "The outstanding balance is now incurring interest at 8% over the UK base rate for the (sic) each day it is not settled."

To my eyes, this clearly indicates it's a daily penalty of base+8% - which is ridiculous, as many have said above. Does this make their notice invalid?

[Pocster]

6 minutes ago, Tom said:

Also, the wording of their letter stating the penalty interest is this: "The outstanding balance is now incurring interest at 8% over the UK base rate for the (sic) each day it is not settled."

To my eyes, this clearly indicates it's a daily penalty of base+8% - which is ridiculous, as many have said above. Does this make their notice invalid?

I think you’re worrying too much . Do nothing and wait . Sometimes the less you say the better . Let them make their move next week . Might be easier to post their exact response . Sometimes it’s what isn’t said or what is ( or is not ) implied is important in your defence .

[saveasteading]

You've made your case. It seems that silence is your best reaction....make them aware that you aren't panicking.

[Tom]

OK, so the contractor has failed to answer my questions re the disputed items on the invoice (broken tiles, tower scaffold hire) or provide any evidence as to why I should be liable for these costs - they have essentially completely ignored my last email to them. Instead they have emailed what they call a "Letter before Legal action is taken" - saying this:

 

"This letter serves as a notification that legal action will be taken in 7 days if the full payment for Invoice (deleted) which were due for payment on 28th January 2025 remains outstanding. We have sent reminders and a final demand and yet the payment remains outstanding. Failure to settle the outstanding amount will result in (deleted) taking the following actions to resolve the overdue payment: 1. Application to the Small Claims Court to recoup the money owed plus legal expenses. 2. Termination of the contract which will void the 12 month defect period."

 

In the email they also say "failure to pay the full amount in 7 days will lead to us terminating your contract, which include all subcontractors and will void the 12 month defect period. Under the termination, any trades that have to complete work will be under no obligation to return or to provide any certificates"

 

I am currently withholding costs for broken tiles and tower scaffold hire but I have agreed to pay an amount to cover the original tiling costs that I had previously withheld, pending their evidence for this cost (which they have now sent me and is satisfactory).

Now that it looks like they are threatening not to return to issue the electrical completion certificate, would it be reasonable for me to pay for the tiling costs, as above, but subtract a reasonable amount for getting a third party to test and issue the electrical completion certificate, if this were needed?

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Tom said:

but subtract a reasonable amount for getting a third party to test and issue the electrical completion certificate, if this were needed?

Get a quote. One thing electrical technicians hate doing is verification and sign off of others work.

 

[Big Jimbo]

How much money are we talking about re the scaffold tower ? My understanding is that that is the main issue ? Did you have some scratched kitchen doors ? have you replaced them, and knocked the cost off your outstanding bill ?

Sometimes I wonder if you might be better to get everything finished and signed off. Then ask them for a refund of the scaffold tower hire, that you don't consider you should pay for. 

If you think you then have a case, take them to the small claims court ? 

I am just wondering if you would have been better off that way

 

Do you have enough money outstanding to get everything finished and signed off ?

If you have. give them no more money, and get all the work finished yourself. Advise them that you are going to do that. They are never going to come back to you in the future.

 

If you end up in small claims, present your bills for the work you have had to had completed in order to finish the job.

 

Thats why you should always have an amount retained until everything is completed.....

[Pocster]

Get quotes for sign off electrical and everything that needs doing that they clearly won’t . Subtract that from what you think you have outstanding.

Told you it would be small claims court .

Judge doesn’t give a (expletive deleted) what you or they say - it’s what you can prove .

So the evidence for damaged doors , the ambiguity over who is responsible for the scaffolding extra costs etc etc . You need to have this all very clearly provable - judge ain’t got all day .

You also ( assuming you ‘win’ ) need to have the judge make some provision for your now lack of warranty , undue stress , financial stress ( if provable ) . All costs that you have suffered by attending court etc etc .

Nice big list …

[Pocster]

23 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

If you think you then have a case, take them to the small claims court ? 

Sometimes that’s a good tactic . Here though , assuming they do actually start small claims court proceedings- let them do the donkey work and initial costs . They may come back with an offer rather than court .

Google the company ; find any evidence of previous similar actions by them . Or hire a private investigator like I do 😊

@Tom has got enough to deal with already .

Edited Wednesday at 13:30 by Pocster

[Nickfromwales]

Maybe ask for mediation first, so you can clear the air via an impartial 3rd party(s)? 
 

Arguing takes a lot of effort, talking can smooth this both ways, but they’re on thin ice and would be stuffed if this got in front of a judge. 
 

If they did make a claim, you’d just respond via a counter-claim and get it set aside, but tbh you really want to avoid court action either way wherever possible. Can go either way, it’s not a given.

 

Whoever damaged the tiles, how can you evidence that you or a family member / visitor did not do this? For eg. Have they admitted damaging them? CCTV footage? 

[Nickfromwales]

Offer to split the scaff costs to break bread? Tbh you should have said it needs to go and asked if it was going ‘on the bill’, because if the contract says you’re responsible for the hire for the duration then you’re fecked. 

[Tom]

8 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Maybe ask for mediation first, so you can clear the air via an impartial 3rd party(s)? 
 

Arguing takes a lot of effort, talking can smooth this both ways, but they’re on thin ice and would be stuffed if this got in front of a judge. 
 

If they did make a claim, you’d just respond via a counter-claim and get it set aside, but tbh you really want to avoid court action either way wherever possible. Can go either way, it’s not a given.

 

Whoever damaged the tiles, how can you evidence that you or a family member / visitor did not do this? For eg. Have they admitted damaging them? CCTV footage? 

 

Looking at the small claims info on gov.uk looks like mediation happens as part of the process, so guess I will wait for that.

The tiles were damaged during the work, presumably as or very shortly after they were laid. One on the floor had cracked where it had been notched, and the one behind the wall hung toilet had cracked where it had been cut out to take the waste etc.

 

6 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Offer to split the scaff costs to break bread? Tbh you should have said it needs to go and asked if it was going ‘on the bill’, because if the contract says you’re responsible for the hire for the duration then you’re fecked. 

I paid for 8 weeks tower hire as we had agreed initially, it was then taken down and put in a corner of the build. Their argument now is that they left it on site "as a favour" in case I needed it - without telling me or course!

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, Tom said:

Looking at the small claims info on gov.uk looks like mediation happens as part of the process, so guess I will wait for that.

Mediation via other not via CC claim. Sorry. 
 

1 minute ago, Tom said:

The tiles were damaged during the work, presumably as or very shortly after they were laid. One on the floor had cracked where it had been notched, and the one behind the wall hung toilet had cracked where it had been cut out to take the waste etc.

Did you / they immortalise this discussion? 

[Nickfromwales]

11 minutes ago, Tom said:

I paid for 8 weeks tower hire as we had agreed initially, it was then taken down and put in a corner of the build. Their argument now is that they left it on site "as a favour" in case I needed it - without telling me or course!

What of this have they immortalised? 

[Tom]

25 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Did you / they immortalise this discussion? 

 

The cracks were brought to their attention at the time and they arranged for the tiles to be replaced. No mention was made of a cost to me. 

In contrast, in a separate incident the tilers cut out completely the wrong shape for the shower valve, the contractor vigorously denied responsibility and I ended up replacing the tiles myself.

[Tom]

22 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

What of this have they immortalised? 

 

The item on the invoice says for" scaffold and hire of tower scaffold for eight weeks". This has been paid. No mention of the tower scaffold was made for the next six months as it collected dust.