Heat Pumps

[nod]

We called at the buyers of our previous build While we hated the idea of of installing PV to our beautiful  slate roof They have gone ahead and installed and are very pleased with it 

However they where talked into replacing the very efficient Greenstar boiler and tank with a HP All in for 18k 

all in They realize that It will be many years before that recoup the cost 

But what has really pissed them off Is the salesman telling them that it will cut there bills in half With the electricity nearly four times the cost of gas and we where only paying £70 a month for gas 

I did point out that it’s probably not the best time of the year for PV 

But they feel misled 

 

Though BG are running a radio add Promising to be cheaper to run than your gas boiler Guaranteed Though I suspect a preferential tariff may be part of the deal 

[ProDave]

£70 per month is £840 per year.  So if the HP that cost £18K halved their bill it would save £420 per year.  So would take 42 years to recoup the outlay.  

 

Do people not do a little basic maths before signing up to these schemes?

[JohnMo]

  On 26/01/2025 at 18:29, ProDave said:

Do people not do a little basic maths before signing up to these schemes

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Possibly a rectorial question - but no they don't. They are taken for the mugs they seem to be. Money rich, but that's about it.

 

 

[nod]

  On 26/01/2025 at 18:29, ProDave said:

£70 per month is £840 per year.  So if the HP that cost £18K halved their bill it would save £420 per year.  So would take 42 years to recoup the outlay.  

 

Do people not do a little basic maths before signing up to these schemes?

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Yep PV included 

When they viewed our home they where the only ones who mentioned the lack of PV I held back on saying we both hated it from an esthetic point of view 

I simply showed them the SAP with a projected saving of around £200 per year They’ve seemed to of ignored that and totally been swept away by sales talk and ignored that our yearly bill for heating and hot water was low for a large five bed home 

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

  On 26/01/2025 at 18:47, JohnMo said:

Possibly a rectorial question

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That would be an ecumenical matter then. "Rectorial: relating to a rector, which can be the head of a university or school, or a member of the clergy" oh I see, rhetorical would work butter there. 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

So IF the HP saved them £420 per year and the PV saved them £200 per year, that would be £620 per year saved.

 

That brings the £18K payback time to a mere 29 years then.

 

I know it is not all about payback time but "doing the right thing" but you have to be a pretty dedicated eco warrior to pay that.

[nod]

  On 26/01/2025 at 18:47, JohnMo said:

Possibly a rectorial question - but no they don't. They are taken for the mugs they seem to be. Money rich, but that's about it.

 

 

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I’ve stated before on here A heating engineer friend of mine that works for a company in Merseyside Now fits HPs on large Counsul estates The company gets the grant and nothing on top He hates it People coming in to where he’s working waving electric bills which are much higher than there previous gas bills 

He says he would never have gone on the two day corse if he’d had known it was going to be like this 😁

[MikeSharp01]

  On 26/01/2025 at 20:53, ProDave said:

 

That brings the £18K payback time to a mere 29 years then.

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Payback time can be worked out in a variety of ways. Try net present value and see how it comes out or real rate of return is another option.

[nod]

  On 26/01/2025 at 20:53, ProDave said:

So IF the HP saved them £420 per year and the PV saved them £200 per year, that would be £620 per year saved.

 

That brings the £18K payback time to a mere 29 years then.

 

I know it is not all about payback time but "doing the right thing" but you have to be a pretty dedicated eco warrior to pay that.

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Yep 

 

Back on our first build I did ask the question I think it was possible you Dave that answered it Gas or HP

We chose gas due to it being right outside the plot £800 connection Super cheap to run 

Same with PV 

Secondhand PV self install Payback five or six years 

I think we where quoted 7 k for PV back then 

 

Our buyers have two electric cars which we didn’t They have been told charging these will now cost Pennie’s per year 

 

We didn’t have gas option on our current build The grant definitely helped Unlike gas a HP display tells you exactly how much it is using each month 

This is why they feel so cheated 

[JohnMo]

  On 26/01/2025 at 20:50, MikeSharp01 said:

rhetorical

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Dyslexic and spell check are good friends sometimes.

[MikeSharp01]

  On 26/01/2025 at 21:11, JohnMo said:

  On 26/01/2025 at 20:50, MikeSharp01 said:

rhetorical

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Dyslexic and spell check are good friends sometimes

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Yes - don't I know it. Took me 5 goes to get my English O level. 

[JohnMo]

  On 26/01/2025 at 21:24, MikeSharp01 said:

Took me 5 goes to get my English O level

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Never did, but still managed an engineering degree. But can't spell to save my life, so badly sometimes that spell check doesn't help either, so have to use a different word altogether.

 

Surprisingly putting really badly spelt words into Google search, prompts you with the correct spelling, even thought spell check has no idea.

[MikeSharp01]

  On 26/01/2025 at 21:59, JohnMo said:

Never did, but still managed an engineering degree. But can't spell to save my life, so badly sometimes that spell check doesn't help either, so have to use a different word altogether.

 

Surprisingly putting really badly spelt words into Google search, prompts you with the correct spelling, even thought spell check has no idea.

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Yes that's because Google is bigger than any spell check and it knows how the planets dyslexic people ask questions and what they really mean, really. 

[SteamyTea]

Dyslexia Rules, KO

 

I have to keep telling my friend's dyslexic son that his mother works in a warehouse.

 

[ReedRichards]

When I was looking into getting a heat pump back in 2020 I got several quotes.  Some companies promised me big savings in running costs over my oil boiler so I avoided them  because I had done the sums myself and I knew they were lying.

[RobLe]

I think that's a fair assessment - for a straight gas/oil -> ashp swap, the running costs are similar.   And changing a functioning heating system is somewhat of a risk. 

There are ways to improve matters though which you cannot do with gas/oil; if you have a house with PV, you get some cheaper electricity effectively.  If you've a low heating requirement, then getting rid of the gas standing charge is noticeable.  There are lots of time-of-use tariffs now that allow for something more creative - especially if your house has a long thermal time constant.  Our house rises or falls about 1degC/day in winter with/without the heating on, so it would be possible to turn off the heating at certain times of day without noticing. 

If you have an elec car, you could get intelligent Octopus Go, giving extra cheap timeslots which also allow cheap heatpump operation - I expect more of this to occur in future, using heating as a cheap "battery" when the wind blows.  And of course the battery option - there's differing opinions about whether it "pays for itself" yet - but there's no doubt in my mind that battery prices will continue to fall.

[SteamyTea]

  On 27/01/2025 at 18:26, RobLe said:

but there's no doubt in my mind that battery prices will continue to fall.

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I think the same, there is no shortage of resources or production, and we have not started recycling in earnest yet.

 

[sharpener]

  On 27/01/2025 at 18:26, RobLe said:

if you have a house with PV, you get some cheaper electricity effectively

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The two are not really connected. If you can avoid the peak rate by time-shifting your usage then using say Octopus it can be better to export at 15p when you can and import at 12p when you need to.

 

Unfortunately at this time of year there is no chance of PV when you most need it, during the evening peak 1600 - 1900.

 

And although the best generating time is often after lunch, home consumption is only saving you 5p/unit then as that is the Cosy cheap period 1300 - 1600.

 

 

Edited February 5 by sharpener

[JohnMo]

  On 05/02/2025 at 10:33, sharpener said:

Octopus it can be better to export at 15p when you can and import at 12p when you need to

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You assume everyone can have a smart meter. Without a smart meter and a MCS install you get about 5p for export, and you can only get E7 or standard tariff, without a smart meter. So just about zero incentive to export.

 

Currently have dishwasher and heat pump tumble dryer on and battery slowly charging. 

 

  On 05/02/2025 at 10:33, sharpener said:

home consumption is only saving you 5p/unit

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So mine is currently saving 30p per kWh (peak rate cost)

[sharpener]

  On 05/02/2025 at 11:19, JohnMo said:

Currently have dishwasher and heat pump tumble dryer on and battery slowly charging.

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It's quite difficult to optimise even for a single installation and there is certainly no "one size fits all" solution.

 

Yes, I suppose I was assuming a best case scenario with smart meter, metered exports and maybe batteries. In which case even if I was generating sufficiently I would not be running the dishwasher and tumbler dryer now bc I would be consuming PV that would otherwise be exported at 15p. Whereas if I run them 0400 - 0700 they cost me only 5p/kW.

 

This is why I was keen to get the 3.7kW export limit removed as I had no good way of predicting the daily PV total or making sure I was charging the battery with the 3.2 kW surplus rather than simply have the PV generation curtailed.

 

OTOH it is still worth making sure my battery is fully charged 1300 - 1600, bc the stored energy displaces consumption from the grid later in the day at 25p/unit.