The complete absence of common sense that is CIL and start dates!

[mjc55]

So received our CIL payment acknowledgement today, we are ready to break ground.

 

This subject has come up numerous times on here and there are tales of those caught out by the totally nonsense rules around starting dates.

 

Is it time maybe, as a group that is primarily concerned with all issues around self-build, that we start a campaign around the start date issue.

 

Why is it so important to have everything in place for CIL before anything starts, there is no common sense to this, it seems purely a way of catching out unwary folk.

 

It's not as if you can hide the fact that you are building, it's in plain sight, there are lots of things that flag up the fact that a build is to take place.

 

Thoughts?

[nod]

So have you actually paid the cil ?

[Russell griffiths]

What’s the problem 

get the forms fill them out, get acknowledgment that it’s all been received from the council, start work. 
 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Agree - the implementation of CIL is complete BS. My LPA apparently doesn’t even know how to measure GIA and completely ignored the accurate figure I gave them. So, why did they ask for it?

[G and J]

My experience is the opposite.  They were very helpful, patiently guiding me over the phone, and when the building control company erroneously filed the wrong start date (masses in ahead of the real date and potentially contravening the CIL process) they calmly and quickly sorted it. 
 

I agree with Russell, it’s a simple process so just get it done.  

[SteamyTea]

The problem is that many people do not know about it.

[Bramco]

The guy building a couple of doors down says his architect will handle it. Given he's on his 3rd pretty picture architect, I strongly doubt it. I've tried to explain how it's easy to do and also the consequences of not doing it but....

 

Could be little windfall for the council coming up!

[mjc55]

The issue with it is that I just don't understand this idea of once you start you are liable!

 

How does that make sense?  It might be straightforward, and yes the people I have dealt with in Dorset have been really helpful, so it’s not the concept of CIL that I am talking about.

 

It's not as if you would disappear from view once started, it is blindingly obvious when a new build commences.  

 

So I ask again, how does starting a build suddenly mean that you are liable for the CIL?  If it's a self-build it's a self-build!

 

I am exempt from CIL @nod so do not need to pay, but that doesn't negate the nonsense around starting and liability.

[mjc55]

On 14/01/2025 at 00:27, G and J said:

My experience is the opposite.  They were very helpful, patiently guiding me over the phone, and when the building control company erroneously filed the wrong start date (masses in ahead of the real date and potentially contravening the CIL process) they calmly and quickly sorted it. 
 

I agree with Russell, it’s a simple process so just get it done.  

 

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I don't remember you thinking this at the time!

[mjc55]

On 13/01/2025 at 21:42, Russell griffiths said:

What’s the problem 

get the forms fill them out, get acknowledgment that it’s all been received from the council, start work. 
 

 

The problem, obviously is that not everyone knows about CIL.  Of course you could argue that they should but that is a different question really.

[G and J]

24 minutes ago, mjc55 said:

The issue with it is that I just don't understand this idea of once you start you are liable!

 

How does that make sense?  It might be straightforward, and yes the people I have dealt with in Dorset have been really helpful, so it’s not the concept of CIL that I am talking about.

 

It's not as if you would disappear from view once started, it is blindingly obvious when a new build commences.  

 

So I ask again, how does starting a build suddenly mean that you are liable for the CIL?  If it's a self-build it's a self-build!

 

I am exempt from CIL @nod so do not need to pay, but that doesn't negate the nonsense around starting and liability.

I suspect it’s simplicity of rules/process being prioritised over sanity of concept.  
 

The building world reacts well to ‘do this or else, then do that or else’, so maybe they’ve just gone for something easy to understand and workable.

 

24 minutes ago, mjc55 said:

 

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I don't remember you thinking this at the time!

I was stressed about the stupidity of our building control company’s admin, but not about the CIL peeps or their process.  And the nice CIL peeps did guide me through beautifully.

 

 

[Bancroft]

On 13/01/2025 at 19:20, mjc55 said:

totally nonsense rules

From a government perspective, they're not totally nonsense.

 

They're there to trip you up, cost you money, and piss you off.

 

Our build is being held up at the moment because one of the pre-commencement conditions of our planning approval is a detailed landscape plan.

 

So, we can't put a spade in the ground until we have given them a detailed plan (down to percentages of hedge species and wildflower mix) - despite the fact that we can't landscape until we've a) built the new house and b) knocked down the old one.

 

It's like an episode of Yes, Minister with our planning department.

[nod]

40 minutes ago, mjc55 said:

The issue with it is that I just don't understand this idea of once you start you are liable!

 

How does that make sense?  It might be straightforward, and yes the people I have dealt with in Dorset have been really helpful, so it’s not the concept of CIL that I am talking about.

 

It's not as if you would disappear from view once started, it is blindingly obvious when a new build commences.  

 

So I ask again, how does starting a build suddenly mean that you are liable for the CIL?  If it's a self-build it's a self-build!

 

I am exempt from CIL @nod so do not need to pay, but that doesn't negate the nonsense around starting and liability.

Ah

it was the payment acknowledgment that through me 

 

I’ve done ours both time over the phone and by email Quick and easy 

They can’t simply assume that your a self builder intending on living there as your main residence 

[G and J]

15 minutes ago, Bancroft said:

They're there to trip you up, cost you money, and piss you off.

Or maybe to raise money from the ‘windfall’ excess profits developers can make.  We pay too few taxes in Blighty, and we get the services we have paid for, so good luck to ‘em and well done for exempting us self builders. 

[mjc55]

1 hour ago, G and J said:

Or maybe to raise money from the ‘windfall’ excess profits developers can make.  We pay too few taxes in Blighty, and we get the services we have paid for, so good luck to ‘em and well done for exempting us self builders. 

You are missing the point! 

 

I didn't say that the idea of CIL was incorrect it is the idea that if you do anything before paying then you are stuffed, that's what is wrong.

 

The clue is in the title of the thread.

[SteamyTea]

It is a bit odd that not all local authorities have CIL.

Some have S106 still, and others nothing.

 

I have the same grievance with single yellow line parking restrictions, they need to be the same nationally, double yellows are, and it is not as if the speed limit signs that say 60 MPH are 60 in some LAs, 70 in others and 40 in the next country.

All a (expletive deleted)ing nonsense having 'local rules' on taxation.

[Alan Ambrose]

1.5 weeks now and they still have not corrected the CIL figure that they made in their favour by 9%. How did they do that? Oh, by measuring external area, that's how.

 

Any only other people or organisations who would say 'you have to sign this promissory liability note and then, maybe if you play your cards exactly right, we won't charge you?' 'And f... any little thing up, and you can be sure we'll nail you?'

 

The mafia maybe? Drug dealers? Loan sharks?

[G and J]

5 hours ago, mjc55 said:

You are missing the point! 

Oh I’m sure it’s accidental. I couldn’t possibly be thinking of anything other than precisely the title of this thread. 
 

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

It is a bit odd that not all local authorities have CIL.

Some have S106 still, and others nothing.

 

I have the same grievance with single yellow line parking restrictions, they need to be the same nationally, double yellows are, and it is not as if the speed limit signs that say 60 MPH are 60 in some LAs, 70 in others and 40 in the next country.

All a (expletive deleted)ing nonsense having 'local rules' on taxation.

I wonder at the desirability of local variations in such legislation.  Hoomans appears to need to feel both special and individual , so perhaps customisation of local stuff is the natural result.  Perhaps a ‘ one size fits all’ thing would be equally flawed but in a different way.  

[mjc55]

1 hour ago, G and J said:

Oh I’m sure it’s accidental. I couldn’t possibly be thinking of anything other than precisely the title of this thread. 
 

I wonder at the desirability of local variations in such legislation.  Hoomans appears to need to feel both special and individual , so perhaps customisation of local stuff is the natural result.  Perhaps a ‘ one size fits all’ thing would be equally flawed but in a different way.  

The point you seem to be missing is that I am not in any way saying that CIL (or some such) should not be levied.  If the title of thread is confusing I would assume that the content would support that!

[Temp]

I think it might be to stop a developer building a house, then just before fitting the front door they sell it to Mr Smith and agree the builder is actually building a self build for Mr Smith. They could split the CIL saving between them. Something like that. Requiring all the paperwork at the outset stops this.

[G and J]

8 hours ago, mjc55 said:

The point you seem to be missing is that I am not in any way saying that CIL (or some such) should not be levied.  If the title of thread is confusing I would assume that the content would support that!

 

Just expressing an opinion.......it makes our (G&J) lives easy if we just do what the rules say......the rule says do forms before you start, so like it or not it's a no brainer to do.........venting over it is not going to help our stress levels, nor is taking a pop at anyone who has a different view of the world to us.....horses for courses, we're all different

[Alan Ambrose]

Yep, I understand the pragmatic approach and therefore just observing and living with the 'rules'. But ... sooner or later you might have the time & energy (or need) to consider who makes the 'rules', who they impact, how they are 'policed' and whether the 'rules' are well made or need changing. I guess that's called politics.

 

In this case I think the CIL laws (The Community Infrastructure Levy Regulations 2010), like a lot of housing 'rules', were made by central government and heavily influenced by the LPAs and big housebuilders to suit themselves. I think CIL impacts the small builder most. I don't know whether they apply to the big builders or whether they get negotiated away in S106 agreements. Maybe someone else can comment. You can bet that small builders and self-builders had little or no influence or consideration. It would be interesting to find out how the self-build CIL exemption came about.

Edited 15 hours ago by Alan Ambrose