Wall hung WC with horizontal outlet - possible?

[JIH]

I had hoped to use Duofix cistern and frame for my wall hung toilets in the upstairs bathroom and en-suite.  As you can see from my plans these toilets back onto the coombe/void/storage space, where the stack is.

 

But looking at the Duofix system they appear to be designed only for vertical outlet or sub horizontal, perpendicular outlet.  Has anyone experience of this situation?  Is there a reasonable get around?  Or another system other than Duofix that I could use?  I'm reluctant to turn the WCs around by 90 degrees as they would then be at right angles to the ceiling slope.

 

Thanks.

 

[PeterW]

The Duofix outlet can be shortened and dropped into a 90 bend that can be directed anywhere - that’s about a 210mm drop from centreline so would mean both of yours would work fine although it may cost you a fair bit for a 90 degree opposes double tee for the soil stack ..!!

[ProDave]

Prime candidate for a corner branch like I used.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-110-mm-Double-Corner-Branch-Soil-Pipe-110-110-110-90-87-Sewer-Waste-Wate/263345533647?hash=item3d509df2cf:g:77YAAOSw65FXtg4k

[JIH]

52 minutes ago, PeterW said:

The Duofix outlet can be shortened and dropped into a 90 bend that can be directed anywhere - that’s about a 210mm drop from centreline so would mean both of yours would work fine although it may cost you a fair bit for a 90 degree opposes double tee for the soil stack ..!!

 

Hi Peter

 

Please excuse me for being obtuse - but I'm not following you completely.  

 

This is how I had envisaged the connections working, with the bathroom WC joining with a 90 degree branch to the pipe for the en-suite WC, then joining the stack with another 90 degree branch. (Please excuse my crude drawing!)  But with the fittings supplied with the Duofix this layout is not achievable. 

 

So are you suggesting that I use the supplied 90 degree bend, shorten and add another 90 degree bend and then get to the stack as per the above layout albeit 210 mm lower?  Would it be acceptable to introduce more 90 degree bends? 

 

I take it you are referring to the expense of Geberit pipe fittings?

 

Do you think that instead I could use this straight out of frame?

[PeterW]

I don’t think that will fit into the Sigma / Duofix frames but let me check. 

 

And no issues with 90 that close to the pan as you’ve got the flush speed ..!!! Mine goes back under the pan ..!!

[PeterW]

@JIH this is from Geberit :

 

Yes there is part number 366.887.16.1 – straight adaptor

Tell the plumber to still use the pan connector already supplied and instead of installing the 90 degree bend connect (push fit) the straight adaptor on to the pan connector .

 

£19.22 (+VAT) – To purchase the  part directly from Geberit - please call 01926 51 68 07 (Sales Department) – quote the part number – pay for it – and the part will be sent to you.

 

 

Hope that helps ..?? 

[JIH]

12 minutes ago, PeterW said:

@JIH this is from Geberit :

 

Yes there is part number 366.887.16.1 – straight adaptor

Tell the plumber to still use the pan connector already supplied and instead of installing the 90 degree bend connect (push fit) the straight adaptor on to the pan connector .

 

£19.22 (+VAT) – To purchase the  part directly from Geberit - please call 01926 51 68 07 (Sales Department) – quote the part number – pay for it – and the part will be sent to you.

 

 

Hope that helps ..?? 

 

Thank you so much Peter!  Yes that's great!  I was struggling for height with your original idea.  They're not cheap are they?

 

And I see they also do this straight adaptor from 90mm to 110mm (367.887.16.1) which will save a joint.

 

Appreciate your help.

[PeterW]

Careful with the 90/100 as it’s a straight pipe, not the flexible socket adapter for the WC so you may need the first one. 

[JIH]

5 hours ago, PeterW said:

Careful with the 90/100 as it’s a straight pipe, not the flexible socket adapter for the WC so you may need the first one. 

 

@PeterW I'm not sure I understand your concern here.  If, as suggested above, I use the 90/90 mm straight connector (366.887.16.1) instead of the supplied 90 degree bend, I would then use a 90/110 mm reducer to get me to 110 mm and connect to the stack.  So my thinking was that instead of using the 90/90 mm straight connector + 90/110 mm reducer I would just use the 90/110 mm straight connector (367.887.16.1).  Or am I missing something?

[Onoff]

How soon are you planning on doing this? I've some 90mm fittings spares possibly.

 

I'll dig out the spares box later.

[Nickfromwales]

On 27/11/2017 at 11:55, JIH said:

 

Hi Peter

 

Please excuse me for being obtuse - but I'm not following you completely.  

 

This is how I had envisaged the connections working, with the bathroom WC joining with a 90 degree branch to the pipe for the en-suite WC, then joining the stack with another 90 degree branch. (Please excuse my crude drawing!)  But with the fittings supplied with the Duofix this layout is not achievable. 

 

So are you suggesting that I use the supplied 90 degree bend, shorten and add another 90 degree bend and then get to the stack as per the above layout albeit 210 mm lower?  Would it be acceptable to introduce more 90 degree bends? 

 

I take it you are referring to the expense of Geberit pipe fittings?

 

Do you think that instead I could use this straight out of frame?

The two WC's can't tee together as the image shows, as the left hand WC cannot discharge into an equal branch. You'll need a Y-branch and a 45o bend so the flushing water is directed towards the stack without stalling. The corner branch dave linked is the proper fitting to use here TBH, so each WC connects to the stack independently. Using 45o bends or even 90o bends is perfectly acceptable. 

Are the WCs boxed in in each room ? Eg can you use the factory bend to exit sideways on the left WC using the factory connector and then a bend turning left so then facing direct into the stack? Then you could also do the same on the right hand WC and connect into a y branch just after where the left WC enters the storage space. 

[Nickfromwales]

 

 

This option utilises the parts that came supplied, but only work if the sides are boxed in.   

 

Option with a corner branch. 

[Nickfromwales]

Another option with corner branch and no boxing in. 

 

[Onoff]

51 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Another option with corner branch and no boxing in. 

 

 

It's seeing that bloody corner branch that @ProDave posted up the link for that's making me rethink mine!

[PeterW]

So I would simplify 

 

Straight out from both pans. Use a 22/45 depending on where you get to from the back of the top pan to run it into the branch of a Y. Second pan runs straight into the leg of the Y and then into a standard branch on the stack. 

 

[JIH]

16 hours ago, Onoff said:

How soon are you planning on doing this? I've some 90mm fittings spares possibly.

 

I'll dig out the spares box later.

 

Nothing happens quick around here!

 

That's a very kind offer, thank you.  If you happen to have a couple of straight connectors (366.887.16.1) surplus to requirements I would be most interested

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, JIH said:

 

Nothing happens quick around here!

 

That's a very kind offer, thank you.  If you happen to have a couple of straight connectors (366.887.16.1) surplus to requirements I would be most interested

 

Forgot to look tonight (sciatica is driving me up the wall). Just waiting for SWMBO to vacate the bath so I can go soak. I do not want my disc going (again) in time for Christmas!

 

Will look tomorrow.

[JIH]

1 minute ago, Onoff said:

 

Forgot to look tonight (sciatica is driving me up the wall). Just waiting for SWMBO to vacate the bath so I can go soak. I do not want my disc going (again) in time for Christmas!

 

Will look tomorrow.

 

 

No worries.  Enjoy

[Onoff]

8 minutes ago, JIH said:

 

 

No worries.  Enjoy

 

Is the small piece on the left any good, got two. Guessing that could go straight onto the pan connector then 110mm from there? It takes a 90mm male and I think pushes into a 110mm socket...

 

 

 

 

Also got two of the 90deg elbow  90/90 bits spare.

 

@PeterStarck kindly sorted me with a 90mm F to the 110mm M in this photo:

 

 

 

EDIT: BUGGER! The bits I'm offering wouldn't clip into the Geberit frame!

Edited November 29, 2017 by Onoff

[Nickfromwales]

So, another Geberit frame went in today. 

Looked to see how you can go rear horizontal exit with the gubbings supplied. 

@JIH

Ok. So in the picture the black bits are :

Left one is the pan connector which comes supplied too long and you cut it to length. That is inserted into the bent connector ( item on the right ) when you fit this as God intended. 

Middle is the 90x110mm reducer. 

Right is the bent bit ( pan connector receiver ) that gets clipped into the frame to make it a captive fitment. 

 

 

So, for this exercise we take the pan connector and affix the rubber seal. 

 

 

Then fit the reducer straight onto the pan connector as shown. That will take you out the back and push fit into a regular 110mm soil fitting. 

 

 

Bingo. No need to buy anything else as you have rear access to both the cisterns and can offer these on once the frames are in an the pans are on. With no rear access you'd need the captive element so the pipes don't push away from the pan when you offer it against the pan connector and flush pipe, but here you can just make the soil up in the service void and clip it all together nice and tight. If the pan ever has to come off and be refitted, then the pipework will be held by the fact the soil is all clipped / mechanically fixed appropriately. 

 

[JIH]

14 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

The two WC's can't tee together as the image shows, as the left hand WC cannot discharge into an equal branch. You'll need a Y-branch and a 45o bend so the flushing water is directed towards the stack without stalling. The corner branch dave linked is the proper fitting to use here TBH, so each WC connects to the stack independently. Using 45o bends or even 90o bends is perfectly acceptable. 

 

Umm

 

I thought what I had was effectively a manifold system with 2 WCs.  Below is exert from Marley's design and installation manual where they use 90 degree branches.  As long as I have a good angle to give fall into the horizontal pipe do you not think this would be ok?  I might have to use a  shallow bend vertically on each line just to give the fall.

 

[Nickfromwales]

In an arrangement like the one you show in the Marley design, yes you can use equal branches, but I wouldn't in your situation as you have the opportunity to do a better and IMO more reliable install. 

Ive done as above in offices and nightclubs etc where there are 4 / 5 / 6 or more WC's in a row, tight together and no room to use y branches. The nightclub ones often blocked with any 'excess material' sent down so the rodding eyes we fitted got used a LOT. ( I know this because I DJ'd there and my ex boss did the install  ). 

When you clearly have the opportunity to go Y branch......Y wouldn't you ??

[PeterW]

8 minutes ago, JIH said:

 

Umm

 

I thought what I had was effectively a manifold system with 2 WCs.  Below is exert from Marley's design and installation manual where they use 90 degree branches.  As long as I have a good angle to give fall into the horizontal pipe do you not think this would be ok?  I might have to use a  shallow bend vertically on each line just to give the fall.

 

 

Marley manifold is designed to be used in commercial buildings - the branches are about £25 each and you connect the pan direct using another fitting that is about £30.... you can’t put a horizontal extension on it the way you’ve drawn it. 

[JIH]

12 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

Bingo. No need to buy anything else as you have rear access to both the cisterns and can offer these on once the frames are in an the pans are on. With no rear access you'd need the captive element so the pipes don't push away from the pan when you offer it against the pan connector and flush pipe, but here you can just make the soil up in the service void and clip it all together nice and tight. If the pan ever has to come off and be refitted, then the pipework will be held by the fact the soil is all clipped / mechanically fixed appropriately. 

 

 

Oh cunning plan!  I like it.  I just need to buy pipe clips instead

 

Thanks very much

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, JIH said:

I just need to buy pipe clips instead

D'oh ?  You'll be buying them ANYWAY. 

Take me now, Lord.