Bathroom layout and difficulty running drains - ideas appreciated

[Addlepate]

Hi all,

 

Tackling the bathroom layout and design, prompted by a new boiler installation next week 😱. This is part of a renovation of a 1912 terrace house. Aim is to include a good size bath, walk in shower, plus obviously toilet and basin etc. The boiler is currently in a cupboard in one corner of the bathroom. This is the layout as it is:

 

 

This doesn't work too badly, perhaps with the shower on the top wall:

 

 

Trouble is, the joists run longways (left to right) and the stack is outside the wall bottom left, near the existing toilet, so we'd have to cut all the joists to run the shower drain. The only options I can see are (1) put in a false floor to create space for the shower drain, (2) go out through the window wall; but the pitch roof of the extension comes up to three courses of brick below the bathroom window, so we'd have to break in to the extension roof space to run the shower drain, (3) put the sink where I've shown the shower, and the shower bottom left, which would mean moving the toilet but the sink drain would be above floor level and could run round the walls, boxed in:

 

 

Wondering if anyone can spot anything I've missed, or has any general advice or thoughts about the proposed layouts. Thanks.

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Addlepate

[G and J]

If you're going to have the radiator/towel rail as drawn check you're not going to catch it with the swing of the door......that type are pretty deep

 

Early morning sp deficit!

Edited December 31, 2024 by G and J

[Redbeard]

Is the kitchen below? Can you drop the shower waste down and take it out at GF ceiling level, or even GF level?

Edited December 31, 2024 by Redbeard

[Iceverge]

If you don't want to have a raised base to the shower it's stuck in that corner.

 

Although drilling through joists and adding metal strengthening plates is not impossible I believe. 

 

To a certain extent everything else can happily be moved where you like it as built in vanity, bath surrounds all conceal pipes nicely. 

[FarmerN]

5 hours ago, Addlepate said:

 

 

 Aim is to include a good size bath, walk in shower, plus obviously toilet and basin etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How important is the Walk in shower ?

You say a good sized bath so to state the obvious, a shower over the bath is the easy solution .  

That’s what we did and it works well.

Can you put a walk in shower in another room altogether, even down stairs?

[joe90]

I would not be without my walk in shower, I like no 2, basin waste need only be 32mm which could fit in a deep skirting box (mine is). With a boxed in bath this deep skirting only needs to go from basin to bath. Then out the bottom wall and into stack outside, same with shower waste.

[-rick-]

Option 2 seems much better to me. Much better use of space, larger area to dry/get dressed, nicer bath position. Could add cupboard or other storage next to sink for towels, etc. Could also increase size of shower or make it a large corner style one like @Onoff

[torre]

Where does your boiler condensate drain to? It's a lot more water but maybe about to drain there?

 

Perhaps another option is shower where the bath is now and have a free standing bath beside it, longways facing the window

 

Alternatively, based on your last pic, you could think about having the sink between the bath and toilet, all the drainage is on one wall

 

 

[Addlepate]

Morning all, thanks for your thoughts. Apologies for the delay replying - I had a minor eye procedure yesterday and couldn't see to type!

 

@G and J thanks, good catch - the radiator is just lashed in for the moment and I still have to work out where radiator and furniture would fit, and what type, as well as which way the door will swing (it's hinged the opposite side from that shown at the moment).

 

@Redbeard it is kitchen below. I don't see a way to do that at the moment, but I will give it some thought. The option at the moment seems to be to go out through the window wall and into the extension roof space, then somewhere, which is do-able but would be work to break into and then make good the currently inaccessible roof space.

 

@Iceverge thanks. By stuck in that corner I take it you mean bottom left as shown. Part of the thinking of the second layout is to start with a high drain from the sink so we can go round the walls and conceal boxing in behind the bath etc.

 

@FarmerN thanks, good thoughts but no option for a shower in another room. Walk in shower is a requirement at the moment though we will consider, particularly as you've suggested a shower over bath can work well.

 

@joe90 thanks. Interesting that you and @-rick- at least seem to be leaning towards option 2 which I think I might be coming round to. It does, as you say, make arranging the plumbing much simpler. I'd been wary of saving work at the expense of a worse, and less attractive, room layout but it does seem to work and would allow us to have a less dominant boiler cupboard. @-rick- the dog leg in the corner is the boiler cupboard - the grey / brown face would be the door - and we plan an airer above for towels etc. I'm not familiar with @Onoff's shower but hadn't thought of a corner one.

 

@torre current boiler is ancient and not condensing so no condensate drain at present, just the run off from the pressure relief valve. Condensate drain is another consideration and the plan would be to put it into the shower or sink drain. There wouldn't be room for a shower where the existing bath is now; the drawings are a bit misleading as the tool wouldn't let me put a bigger window in; in reality you'd only get a 700 wide shower in that corner, which is too small. I did think about everything on one wall, but it's too tight; it all ends up too cramped together and not very useable. Thanks for the thoughts though.

 

I feel a bit as though I'm shooting everyone down; hopefully I'm not, as it's all helping the thinking. I've also had a discussion about drilling the joists and running the shower waste from the position shown in option 1 to the bottom wall, but I don't think it's possible as I couldn't comply with building regs and get enough fall on the waste. Any further thoughts appreciated.

 

 

[Addlepate]

There is one other wrinkle, which is that although I've shown the room as rectangular, it's actually slightly lozenge shaped - the whole house is out of square by five degrees or so. For option 2 that would mean an angled bit of drywall or studwork to square the corner off for the shower, though that's probably easier than complex waste runs.

[joe90]

34 minutes ago, Addlepate said:

feel a bit as though I'm shooting everyone down;

Not at all, we all have different points of view, I have fitted bathrooms as a job for many years but I don’t live in your house 🤷‍♂️. I tend to address plumbing first as that’s the difficult part. I too have a corner shower with round door and find it works well (I hate tight shower cubicles). Battening out to make a corner square is relatively easy.

https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/newark-offset-quadrant-shower-enclosure-only-various-sizes?&preSelected

[torre]

How about building some integrated storage along the wall below the window and hiding the pipes in that?

[-rick-]

20 hours ago, -rick- said:

Option 2 seems much better to me. Much better use of space, larger area to dry/get dressed, nicer bath position. Could add cupboard or other storage next to sink for towels, etc. Could also increase size of shower or make it a large corner style one like @Onoff

Just realised I meant option 3 (second photo). I think this option solves you routing problems but is also just a much better layout.

Edited January 1 by -rick-

[Addlepate]

@joe90 thanks. I'm the sort of person who thinks by bouncing ideas around so it's really useful for me, and to have the benefit of professional experience. I'm thinking get the plumbing right early, work with what's there but don't be afraid to make changes or take on work if it makes for a much better layout, but don't make a rod for my own back if I don't have to. Definitely going for a larger cubicle, I hate feeling cramped in the shower. I was thinking a frameless corner shower.

 

@torre thanks. The window and bottom wall are external and I'd like to get some extra insulation in there so was thinking about another thickness of something, maybe old style wood [effect] panelling. e.g. https://www.panellingdirect.co.uk/product/1x-moisture-resistant-panelling-2440mm/ or the shiplap / T&G style. That might stand off to form a shelf or more storage with the sink drain running through underneath. I'd have to work out how to make it work round the window - it's much bigger than it looks in the layout, 1200 wide and 1700 high and only 770 off the floor, so panelling or storage of normal height would have to fit round it, but that can be done.

 

@-rick- this one? I agree if so, as does the mistress of the house! Need to work out furnishing and rediator positioning details.

 

 

 

Thinking about the boiler positioning a bit more, top right on the window wall gives us a shallower and less dominant airing / boiler cupboard and is best for option 2, and if we did go for option 1 and a bigger cupboard the boiler access would still be OK, albeit a bit awkward.

[-rick-]

47 minutes ago, Addlepate said:

@torre thanks. The window and bottom wall are external and I'd like to get some extra insulation in there so was thinking about another thickness of something, maybe old style wood [effect] panelling. e.g. https://www.panellingdirect.co.uk/product/1x-moisture-resistant-panelling-2440mm/ or the shiplap / T&G style. That might stand off to form a shelf or more storage with the sink drain running through underneath. I'd have to work out how to make it work round the window - it's much bigger than it looks in the layout, 1200 wide and 1700 high and only 770 off the floor, so panelling or storage of normal height would have to fit round it, but that can be done.

 

If you are going to the effort of this renovation then I would look at insulating properly at the same time, not just panelling. Looks like you have plenty of space so adding 50-100mm of insulation on the external walls should be possible without compromising the room layout and will make for a much more comfortable space.

 

47 minutes ago, Addlepate said:

@-rick- this one? I agree if so, as does the mistress of the house! Need to work out furnishing and rediator positioning details.

 

Yep.

 

When your boiler is installed will they be installing things like the towel rail? Worth making sure they don't make things harder for follow on plumbing. It's a tight schedule to finalise the wider plan for the room.

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, -rick- said:

If you are going to the effort of this renovation then I would look at insulating properly at the same time, not just panelling. Looks like you have plenty of space so adding 50-100mm of insulation on the external walls should be possible without compromising the room layout and will make for a much more comfortable space.

+1, and will give you space to hide pipes within the insulation.

[Onoff]

5 hours ago, Addlepate said:

I'm not familiar with @Onoff's shower but hadn't thought of a corner one.

 

That's a wall drain btw and the wet room corner tiles slope towards it.

 

 

[Addlepate]

9 hours ago, -rick- said:

If you are going to the effort of this renovation then I would look at insulating properly at the same time, not just panelling. Looks like you have plenty of space so adding 50-100mm of insulation on the external walls should be possible without compromising the room layout and will make for a much more comfortable space.

 

I thought about that. I'm not sure how to manage insulation on the window wall given the window frame depth etc., but there won't be that much exposed area anyway. I could insulate the other external wall (the bottom wall in the diagram).

 

9 hours ago, -rick- said:

When your boiler is installed will they be installing things like the towel rail? Worth making sure they don't make things harder for follow on plumbing. It's a tight schedule to finalise the wider plan for the room.

 

No, just the boiler at the moment. Yes it is tight, but really all I need to do now is define enough to make sure the boiler's going in the right place. Unfortunately I'm a bit of a hostage to fortune (partner wanting to press on and not being systematic about it)

[Addlepate]

Just thinking about this a bit more. I'm going round in circles a bit this morning.

 

To boiler position, I think it can only go top right on the window wall or long wall, i.e.

  or     

 

It can't go top left because of the door, and bottom right or bottom left uses space that's better used for the bath, shower, toilet etc. (and doesn't work so well for layout). I'd originally thought long wall if we went for option 1 in my original post, or window wall for option 2, to maximise access to the cupboard and boiler (for servicing) in both cases. However, long wall for option 2 could work, per the images above.

 

We sort of got pushed into the boiler fitting for various reasons but I don't think politically I'll be able to clow it down now! There is another issue with putting the boiler on the long wall, where the current boiler is, as the plaster is in pretty poor condition, but we may have to just work round that.

 

I like the idea of insulating the external walls as @-rick- and @joe90 suggest above but it seems to me we are constrained by the early boiler fitting date, and I'm not sure how to insulate the window wall particularly, at least without rebuilding the window frame, as the insulation would be deeper than the frame is.

 

I've shown a free standing bath, and that definitely works better aesthetically, but I'm not clear on how the waste and overflow runs for a free standing bath. Presumably, particularly for one that doesn't have legs, they would have to run underfloor, which would give us the same problem with the joists as the shower does. To have the bath in the position shown for either option, the waste would have to be above the floor, so does that force a built in bath or are there free standing options, preferably without legs, that have the waste above the floor? There's also the weight of a large free standing bath to consider.

 

btw thanks @Onoff for the pic of your wet room; probably not the way we'd go, but it looks like a nice job.

Edited January 2 by Addlepate

[torre]

51 minutes ago, Addlepate said:

We sort of got pushed into the boiler fitting for various reasons but I don't think politically I'll be able to clow it down now

 

It's tough making decisions with the clock ticking! You'll be spending a lot of money on both the refit and the boiler though so if you're very undecided pushing back the install at a stage where you're not letting the plumber down last minute may make sense.

 

If pushed, I think boiler backing onto the long wall looks a bit more flexible, narrows the room less.

 

Is there any scope for moving the doorway? If it was more central on that wall you could put the boiler cupboard top left behind the swing of the door. (You might have to squeeze past it if the boiler has to be installed before the door can be moved!)

[-rick-]

 

 

5 hours ago, Addlepate said:

I like the idea of insulating the external walls as @-rick- and @joe90 suggest above but it seems to me we are constrained by the early boiler fitting date, and I'm not sure how to insulate the window wall particularly, at least without rebuilding the window frame, as the insulation would be deeper than the frame is.

 

What's the current window setup? Most buildings from that age would be brick with a window cill at the bottom and plaster to the sides/above. If I were adding internal insulation I would expect to remove the plaster and cill, build a frame around the opening/along the whole wall to hold the new insulation. Use insulated plasterboard to over both the exposed brick and the new frame to create a new deeper reveal. Then install new, deeper window cill. Having said all that it's not something I've done and I hope someone who has done this will be along shortly.

 

As to how to do the insulation properly, there are other threads on here with detail on that with lots of advice so I would search for them.

 

Are you planning to do most of this work yourself or pay someone?

 

5 hours ago, Addlepate said:

We sort of got pushed into the boiler fitting for various reasons but I don't think politically I'll be able to clow it down now! There is another issue with putting the boiler on the long wall, where the current boiler is, as the plaster is in pretty poor condition, but we may have to just work round that.

4 hours ago, torre said:

It's tough making decisions with the clock ticking! You'll be spending a lot of money on both the refit and the boiler though so if you're very undecided pushing back the install at a stage where you're not letting the plumber down last minute may make sense.

 

If it's a zero cost option other than a short delay then it would certainly be my preference. If not, then maybe consider what option gives you the most future flexibility.

 

4 hours ago, torre said:

If pushed, I think boiler backing onto the long wall looks a bit more flexible, narrows the room less.

 

If you install the boiler on that wall and a little away from the external wall (150mm??) then you leave space to add insulation to that wall later. Even if you had to pay someone to temporarily remove the boiler from the wall while you did it and then put back in exactly the same place, if the pipes don't need moving at that stage I doubt the labour/cost involved would be huge. Depending on the boiler it might be possible to create enough access to do the insulation by just removing it's cover (depending how much space you leave to the wall).

Edited January 2 by -rick-

[joe90]

On 01/01/2025 at 12:06, Addlepate said:

as does the mistress of the house!

That’s a major hurdle, go for it.

[-rick-]

5 hours ago, Addlepate said:

I've shown a free standing bath, and that definitely works better aesthetically, but I'm not clear on how the waste and overflow runs for a free standing bath. Presumably, particularly for one that doesn't have legs, they would have to run underfloor, which would give us the same problem with the joists as the shower does. To have the bath in the position shown for either option, the waste would have to be above the floor, so does that force a built in bath or are there free standing options, preferably without legs, that have the waste above the floor? There's also the weight of a large free standing bath to consider.

 

I found a random freestanding bath installation doc. Looks like this one has space under it to allow pipes to run along the floor to near the edge. Assuming the edge is near the wall you should be able to go under the floor at that point without too much trouble. Again, hopefully someone with practical experience of this will be along to confirm.

 

Edited January 2 by -rick-

[ETC]

Have the shower above the bath.

[joe90]

28 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Looks like this one has space under it to allow pipes to run along the floor to near the edge.

They mostly do, you can get chrome bath waste and pipe as well as chrome floor to bath tap tubes to hide copper or plastic water pipes.

20 minutes ago, ETC said:

Have the shower above the bath.

Only if you don’t have room for a proper shower (IMO).