Redoing an attic

[Garald]

Another possibility (thinking of the ground-floor neighbors on the other side of the backyard, who may lose some light if my wall just becomes 4.5m higher, though windows would help):

 

Is this sort of thing ever done? Is it feasible?

 

Alternatively:

 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Garald

[saveasteading]

Start with this very accessible book and see how you get on. About £5 second hand.

 

Maths is essential for Engineering, but not vice versa. Of course there is a big overlap where the Venn diagrams cross.

3 or 4 years at uni then min 3 in the real world to get qualified. There's a lot to learn, but knowing the principles and the right terms is a good start.

 

 

If I remember, there isn't much Maths in this, but principles.

 

The New Science of Strong Materials (or Why We Don't Fall Through the Floor)  by J E Gordon

 

 

 

 

[Garald]

2 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Start with this very accessible book and see how you get on. About £5 second hand.

 

 

The New Science of Strong Materials (or Why We Don't Fall Through the Floor)  by J E Gordon

 

 

 

 

 

I already read that (excellent) book, and I have its by now half-read sequel (Structures, or why things don't fall down) by my bedside. Now it would make sense for me to get a crash course with maths in it (which I expect to be easy, but might be interesting for all that I know).

[Gus Potter]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll mull it over.. see if I can come up with a anything that may be worthwhile, most of you have already claimed the good ideas and given sound advice in my mind.

 

For all. That's the great thing about BH.. the sharing of ideas, a bit of maths, design principles, Architectural, Goetech, Electrical ( long list) design, innovation and not being to afraid to be off the mark from time to time. I always appreciate BH as if you're a bit off or say something silly you don't get ripped to death.

[joe90]

7 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

That's the great thing about BH.. the sharing of ideas,

Which is why I am still here after finishing my build and no chance of another but find the ideas bounded about in a subject I love inspiring.

[Mike]

22 hours ago, Garald said:

 

Is it feasible?

 

Yes, either could be done in principle, and the vertical part of the 2nd one could either be constructed in masonry or timber.

 

However once the roof gets steep like that you'll need to check out the maxinmum inclination of the pantiles; either slate and zinc could be used instead & would fit with Parisian style. You'd also need to check & enlarge if necessary the capacity of the left hand guttering, as it will be taking much more of the rainfall due to the longer slope.

[Garald]

3 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Thanks for the heads up. I'll mull it over.. see if I can come up with a anything that may be worthwhile, most of you have already claimed the good ideas and given sound advice in my mind.

 

For all. That's the great thing about BH.. the sharing of ideas, a bit of maths, design principles, Architectural, Goetech, Electrical ( long list) design, innovation and not being to afraid to be off the mark from time to time. I always appreciate BH as if you're a bit off or say something silly you don't get ripped to death.

 

I know - I just opened my mouth on reddit asking for pointers to structural-engineering resources that would be useful to a mathematician, and all I got was an amusing pile-on by disgruntled engineers who detest 'arrogant STEM people' (... I thought E was for engineering?).

Speaking of which, can I ask exactly that question here, viz., what to read up? J. E. Gordon is a world of fun but he tries to keep the maths to a minimum (though not lower). The one useful recommendation on reddit was a textbook (Hibbeler's Mechanics of Materials) that looks like what I imagined a good textbook for first- or second-year engineering undergraduates would be like - an easy read, full of pictures, apparently short on theory, and 900 pages long. Surely there has to be an "espresso" book for mathematicians and physicists who want to become less ignorant, aren't scared of maths, want to know the underlying ideas, are used to terse exposition...? Not that I am remotely pooh-poohing real-world experience (or engineers) or believe that maths gives me super-powers.

 

BTW folks on reddit's structural_engineering (Americans I take) were shocked, *shocked*, that engineers haven't formed a holy coven (of people who have to be held in awe) in France; an engineer in France is just a graduate from an engineering program. I didn't tell them that the top engineering programs are particularly prestigious in France (to the point that people on the bus resent Polytechnique graduates a little). I'll probably be best off asking colleagues who have taught in or graduated from ENS Saclay (was: ENS Cachan) whether they know anybody good from the civil engineering program there who would find this little project to be fun. The fact that the selection to get there is maths-heavy probably helps.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Garald

[Garald]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Yes, either could be done in principle, and the vertical part of the 2nd one could either be constructed in masonry or timber.

 

However once the roof gets steep like that you'll need to check out the maxinmum inclination of the pantiles; either slate and zinc could be used instead & would fit with Parisian style. You'd also need to check & enlarge if necessary the capacity of the left hand guttering, as it will be taking much more of the rainfall due to the longer slope.

 

Right, the vertical side or the very steep side would clearly not be tile. And yes, had just thought of guttering. In fact I have to do something related to guttering on that side at some point. I don't know whether I mentioned it here, but during my recent birthday party, someone rung the door during dinner - no, it wasn't a late guest, it was a random person who informed us that hot water was pouring out of my apartment over passersby like herself. A few days later, the plumber came, and told me it was no biggie - I just have the same illegal plumbing as about 1/4 of the population of Paris: the water leaving the kitchen doesn't go to sewage as it should - it joins the eavestrough. The joints in the eavestrough were not watertight - in fact, the plumber said, they are not even meant to be watertight. The eavestrough got clogged with leaves and other random roof stuff, with the result that the output from unusually massive dishwashing flooded onto the street. The plumber just unclogged the eavestrough with a little vacuum pump of sorts, and told me to just make the plumbing legal the next time I "break my kitchen" (an unromantic expression for that modern vice, kitchen renovations).

[saveasteading]

8 minutes ago, Garald said:

engineers haven't formed a holy coven (of people who have to be held in awe)

 

It's in the nature of Engineers to do the job rather than play for power.

 

Plus as a Chartered Civil Engineer we have vowed to put society first. client next ( and by implication ourselves lower).

 

 "maintain lifelong competence, assuring society that the infrastructure they create is safe, dependable and well designed."

 

I don't know about other Engineering professions.

[Garald]

12 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

 

It's in the nature of Engineers to do the job rather than play for power.

 

Plus as a Chartered Civil Engineer we have vowed to put society first. client next ( and by implication ourselves lower).

 

 "maintain lifelong competence, assuring society that the infrastructure they create is safe, dependable and well designed."

 

I don't know about other Engineering professions.

 

Sounds good to me. I'm not going to let a bad reception on reddit sour me on engineers anywhere, obviously.

 

What I meant was (a) the attitude in reddit was not great, (b) I just learned that there's no chartering or licensing for engineering in France like there is in the UK or Germany; a French engineer is just a French engineering graduate.

 

Not to harp on the same story, but I think I scared the bad old pseudoarchitect (note that architects *are* in an Order in France; she wasn't, as it turns out) when I mumbled something about Hammurabi's Code.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Garald

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, Garald said:

a French engineer is just a French engineering graduate.

 A British engineer is anyone that wants to call themselves an engineer.  it is not a protected term.

 

We had our automatic sliding door belt break, the company that made it sent 'an engineer' with a spare, toothed rubber belt and a step ladder.

Half hour later, and with £800 in his pocket, he left.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

British engineer is anyone that wants to call themselves an engineer

And any groundworker can paint 'civil engineer on their van'. 

 

Same to some extent with 'doctor'. 

An extended degree in anything would get a doctorate.....but I think the NHS and public know the difference.

 

Strangely 'Architect' is protected even though the aesthetics of a building won't kill anyone. But the profession sells itself strongly.

 

I don't always correct being called a Structural Engineer, (I kept to the Civil path,) as there is some recognition.

 

Ask the public what is a Doctor or Architect, and all will know. Lawyer? Structural Emgineer? I think so.

 

Mechanical/ electrical/ chemical? 

 

The same applied to trades of course. Electricians at least have standards with certification but I know this gets abused.

 

 

 

 

[Garald]

3 hours ago, saveasteading said:

And any groundworker can paint 'civil engineer on their van'. 

 

Same to some extent with 'doctor'. 

An extended degree in anything would get a doctorate.....but I think the NHS and public know the difference.

 

Strangely 'Architect' is protected even though the aesthetics of a building won't kill anyone. But the profession sells itself strongly.

 

Right, same in France (pretending to be an architect is actually a crime, yet, to judge from news items, fake architects are very much a thing.)

 

The doctorate issue is confused by:

(a) use of the doctor title by academics is actually older than among physicians (some academics will insist, correctly if obnoxiously, that a doctorate in medicine is actually one of the "little doctorates", like a doctorate in law - it doesn't require original research);

(b) (UK, Switzerland, etc.) "Prof." is restricted to what Americans would call full professors, and so 'Dr.' becomes shorthand for "I am an academic who is not a full professor (yet)"

(c) UK surgeons actually insist on being called Mr.

 

Actually, what is the difference between civil engineering and structural engineering? In the earthquake-prone zones of South America, we just assume that civil engineers have been trained to build earthquake-resistant structures. (Actually, that would seem to be the main thing that they learn, given that the large majority of Chilean, Peruvian, etc., engineers would seem to not even know that there is such a thing as thermal efficiency.)

Edited December 29, 2024 by Garald

[saveasteading]

9 minutes ago, Garald said:

what is the difference between civil engineering and structural

Well. I've got a few minutes.

Once upon a time there was Engineering. Making war engines such as trebuchets and battering rams. And associated stuff like tunnels and defences. This was Military Engineering.

Extending this to non military use was then known as Civil ( ie not Military) Engineering. That would be drains, roads, bridges. Perhaps castle-like buildings with big open spaces.

 

There may be some unis where you study a degree in "Structural Engineering". (Others will tell us I expect.)

Mostly, uk at least, it is called Civil Engineering and you learn the lot. Experiments with materials and hydraulics, structural theory and design, drainage, roads, geology, management of construction.etc .

Mine included building science which i enjoyed most.( heat,  light, noise, airflow)

 

Later in real life you are likely to tend toward Civil or Structural specialisation. You can study and be examined after s dew years, for one or both institutions.

 

In my case I designed structures and pipelines and buildings as if an SE. 

The examination for SE though was high end maths without the books and colleagues to refer to. My very clever ISE colleagues took 3 shots at it because their subjects didn't come up.

So I stuck with Civils. Civils also tends to include more management. I presented a real life structural project, and the exam was essays and a heavy interview on design efficiency and the morality ethos of the profession! 

 

So I am qualified to design and to approve structures that I would struggle to understand. I maybe did once but I'm out of practice.

But I don't, and that's the point really. To the extent that I employ an SE when necessary, but only one who will tolerate my interference. Hello @Gus Potter

 

Hence. Most practices say that they are "Civil and Structural Engineers".

 

Coffee finished. Up to the loft!

 

 

[SteamyTea]

@saveasteading

I find you civil.

(Always wondered what your background was)

[Garald]

On 27/12/2024 at 09:25, Mike said:

This would probably be the better option in terms of added value, as it would change the Loi Carrez floor area (the area higher than 1.8m) - worth verifying that with an estate agent?

 

Seeing things strictly from a Loi Carrez perspective (... which is a bit crude from some real estate agents' perspective, but it does give you a main term):

 

The current width of the loi Carrez area in the attic is about 160cm (well, a bit more because of the skylights, even once you discount the stairs, I think; also, these measurements are from the faketitecht's plans - I should verify them myself). The house minus outside walls is about 825cm wide.

 

a) Under the asymmetric plans we started to discuss, the total loi Carrez width would be 825/2 + 160/2 = 492.5cm

b) If the attic were scrapped and made into a place with straight walls (not so likely; wouldn't slanted walls from a lighter material be better?), the total loi Carrez width would be 825.

 

Hence we are looking at a ratio of (825/2-160/2)/(825-160) = 1/2. Hah, we could have also got that without computing anything, just given that the house is symmetric.

 

In other words, from a crude Loi Carrez perspective, the 'sophisticated solution' a) is preferable to b) if its cost is half or less of the cost of scrapping and redoing everything.

 

In reality, it's probably rational to prefer b) (if done well) for 60k eur to a) for 100k eur (both figures may be optimistic - and both require me to wait some time to save first). One also needs to add 10k+ to redo the roof insulation no matter what.

 

Either plan puts me above 150m^2, which probably means an architect needs to be involved - bummer. The solution, I guess, is to find a good engineer who works at architectural studio, so that someone in the order of architects could sign off on the thing. There's such a thing as engineer-architects or architect-engineers in France (apparently there's a difference), but Wikipedia tells me they are rare.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Garald

[Mike]

4 hours ago, Garald said:

Either plan puts me above 150m^2, which probably means an architect needs to be involved - bummer

Yes, unfortunately that is necessary - though even below the limit your copro might require you to use one as a condition of giving permission.

[Garald]

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yes, unfortunately that is necessary - though even below the limit your copro might require you to use one as a condition of giving permission.

 

In principle, yes, though the copro is tiny and the only people who ever vote are the president and the secretary. One of them is one of a couple of very nice retirees and the other one is me. I actually forget who is which one right now.

[Garald]

To return to my question: J. E. Gordon recommends several books at the end of The New Science of Strong Materials, but he says: "Equally, it is not possible to interpret many of one’s observations without the aid of books and, unfortunately, it is not a subject particularly well served by books which are not excessively specialized and mathematical. However, the following books are open to anybody with a knowledge of elementary algebra." I need the opposite - a couple of books for people who most likely know the maths they will need and find it a natural language. Someone recommended a standard textbook to me (Hibbeler) but, while it seems very accessible, it reminds me of the book I was given to teach ODE to first-year or second-year engineering students twenty years ago - prolix, colorful and more than 900 pages long. (I've also heard it said, fairly or not, that it tends to skip the reasons behind the formulas.) Surely there has to be an espresso version?

Edited December 31, 2024 by Garald

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, Garald said:

To return to my question

When I was at university (both as a student and a lecturer), the local public library had a very good selection of engineering books (mostly about mining as I am in a mining area and CSM was based in the town).  Might be worth a visit to your local library (when I worked in London, my local library was the British Library, and I managed to con my way into the Bodleian in Oxford as well).

Failing that, you can always borrow a Jean-Paul Sartre.

[Garald]

12 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

When I was at university (both as a student and a lecturer), the local public library had a very good selection of engineering books (mostly about mining as I am in a mining area and CSM was based in the town).  Might be worth a visit to your local library (when I worked in London, my local library was the British Library, and I managed to con my way into the Bodleian in Oxford as well).

Failing that, you can always borrow a Jean-Paul Sartre.

 

Right - I should have no trouble going to the library of the architecture school that is two blocks from my office (in fact I've already been there). I hope they have the right engineering books - otherwise, that's another sign that I should keep the company of civil engineers and not that of architects!