In a bit of a dilemma...

[pdf27]

A little bit of background for you, we did a fairly comprehensive refurbishment of our last house (keeping the walls, roof, windows and not much else) which gave us a house we absolutely loved. 18 months or so ago I started a new job which was a hideous commute (particularly with two young children), so sold up and finally bought a new place over the summer. I'm a principal mechanical engineer working in the aerospace industry, so have a good grasp of the theory but realistically with two toddlers am not going to get any significant amount of hands-on work done myself.

 

What we've ended up with is a 1920s bungalow in a nice (large) village, with a huge garden and a 1970s extension on the back. Location is great for us - halfway between where we both work, close to nursery and schools and the kids love the garden.The original plan was essentially a glorified loft conversion, with stub walls to expand the usable floor area a bit since the footprint of the original house isn't all that large (55m² or so). Doing so would also give us a chance to sort out some of the issues with the existing building - solid walls and ventilated suspended floors mean it's pretty chilly/draughty at times. Found an architect we liked, who came up with a scheme which seems to work and which we should be able to get planning for (very similar to what the house next door did 10 years ago, and they're also building 50 similarly sized houses at the moment at the bottom of our garden). That got modelled up in PHPP and it looked like EnerPHit (which had been an aspiration for some time) might actually be possible.

 

Then we got the quantity surveyor report on the expected price for everything we would like to do (phased over a number of years), and that's where the plan sort of fell to pieces. The value came back at ~£400k including contingencies and VAT for a 150m² end result - nearly £3k/m² and it also came back with several quotes from timber frame companies saying that they could knock it down and build from scratch for less than the cost of just putting a new floor on, with one noting that they should be able to reuse the existing foundations to save money.

 

As I see it we've got 4 options at the moment:

1. Find quite a bit more money than we were expecting to and go down the demolish/rebuild route. This isn't totally impossible but will be very tough and delay things substantially - our current mortgage has some fairly huge early repayment fees for the next 18 months, for instance, but my wife has just gone back to work so we could probably borrow quite a lot more when it comes up for renewal. Emotionally this is what we'd like to do but I really am worried that we can't afford to do it. We should break even on this option in the long term, but getting sufficient cash to do the work would be problematic.
2. Scale the plans back seriously and do a simple loft conversion complying to building regulations. I don't think this will give us what we're looking for though - in particular we want our bedroom to be on the same floor as the kids (currently 1 and 3), which wouldn't be possible without raising the eaves, which takes us back to Plan A. It would also leave the house uncomfortably cold in winter.
3. Get planning permission then try to sell it on to someone with a bigger budget than us. Unlikely to add much value but would at least potentially mean the work so far wasn't wasted.
4. Live with the existing structure as it is, giving it a bit of a wash & brush up (getting rid of the geriatric wallpaper in the bathroom for instance) and move on in a few years.

 

I'm guessing that quite a few of you guys will have gone through exactly this sort of experience before, so I'm wondering what if any comments you have on our options.

[Bitpipe]

We had a very similar situation, in our case a 1950's detached 3 bed that had a bit of a refurb in the '80s but nothing since. 1/2 acre plot in a good location, on moving in 2 kids mid way through junior school.

 

We toyed with extensions but bit the bullet and went down the demo and rebuild route. We have many friends who did various types of refurb, partial demo etc and spent almost as much as us with much less to show for it and a lot more stress. I'd never built anything more complicated than lego before ....

 

A few observations :

 

1) rebuild from foundation level is 0% VAT - this makes a huge difference to your budget

2) you're not constrained by the current design / footprint / location on plot (subject to PP)

3) You can build a house that meets the performance you want (passive, near passive etc..) - this is not likely to cost that much more as it's mostly in spec and detailing. Easy to do from scratch.

4) you already have services (sewer, water, electric, maybe gas) this is also very expensive to do from scratch.

5) you wont have hidden costs arising as you strip back the original house or try and tie in old to new. The build should proceed fairly smoothly.

6) it will take you more than 18mo to figure it all out, get planning, discharge conditions, line up contractors etc so don't worry about the current redemption fees. Look to remortgage to a sympathetic self build mortgage (Ecology are great).

7) your kids are small enough to treat the whole thing as a big adventure - buy a caravan and live in that big garden (we did this for 18mo). Sell it when you're done. Just try and finish before they're teenagers  .

8) you will never have enough money upfront but you'd be amazed at what you can do on a budget without compromising and being your own PM, sourcing materials, subcontractors etc (much easier when you live on site) 

9) you've pretty much done it before so should not be too fazed.

 

Personally I think you've already decided on 1) and are working your way there Took us a year or so to get to the same place.

 

 

 

[ProDave]

Only 3 observations.

 

I doubt anyone can say for certain that you can use the existing foundations for a new build without at lease an exploratory dig to see what foundations are there.

 

Take a surveyors estimate of build cost with a large pinch of salt.  When we built our previous house we looked at engaging an architect, but the 2 who we met and discussed the project with both gave a huge estimate of how much it would cost to build. Way more than we had.  We ended up building it for not much more than half their estimate (surprise surprise their fee was based on a percentage of the estimated build cost)

 

Is the garden large enough to split it, sell the old bunglow with a small garden and build a new house on the rest of the garden?

[pdf27]

• Caravan in the garden isn't an option - the gap between the current house/attached garage and the boundaries on either side is only ~1m or so (the boundaries aren't quite square, and the house is slightly skewed on the plot - that or it's a slight rhomboid, I'd really have to dig out the measured survey to be certain), and the only road access is from the front. That means unless I can find someone with a large helicopter the caravan isn't getting in - and while the kids would be fine with it my wife would be climbing the walls within minutes.
• Project managing it myself is probably too much - I'm already doing one ~£5m project at work (technical rather than project lead thankfully) and have a horrible feeling that another one will soon end up in my lap. Combined with two young (and demanding) kids and a wife who is struggling a little mentally with going back to work that would be more than I've got the mental capacity to handle.
• Re-use of the existing foundations isn't a deal breaker if impossible (one of the timber frame companies quoted ~£20k for instance) - existing structure is masonry and we'd probably go timber frame which is significantly lighter so the loads would be at worst comparable.
• QS estimate was based on a simple upfront fee to calculate the cost of the spec he was given. It's gold plated to a certain extent - £12k for a kitchen for instance, although that is probably justified by the likely selling price for a house of that size on the street - but even if we assume it would cost us half the estimate that's still more expensive than knocking it down and starting over. Getting the spec down to something we could afford would leave us with a big, uncomfortable house - which isn't something we'd be happy with.
• Plot is long but narrow, all the other gardens are the same - ~15m across I'd guess (current house footprint is 9m wide) - in theory a pair of semis would be practicable, but we'd be left with a long thin garden and the garden is one of the things that I love about the house. For perspective, the tall leylandii you can see in the background of the photo below are ~10m on my side of the back boundary, with mature apple & plum trees beyond them.

[ProDave]

I have a friend (my best man at my wedding) that had a similar bungalow to that.

 

When he first bought it, he extended at the back. Just recently he had the roof off, extended at the side as well, and  a new room in roof upstairs put on.

 

He jokes that he spent most of his working life in a "retirement bungalow" and now he has retired it is extended into a proper grown up large house.

 

At least you have a 2 storey house next door so I should think you would be okay getting planning for an upstairs.

 

A compromise that I have seen up here, is put a new timber framed upper floor on top, and then render the whole lot so you can't see the join. Again your neighbour sets a prescient for that. External wall insulation on the downstairs before the render would be a good plan.  And insulate the timber floors while that is all going on.

[pdf27]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

A compromise that I have seen up here, is put a new timber framed upper floor on top, and then render the whole lot so you can't see the join. Again your neighbour sets a prescient for that. External wall insulation on the downstairs before the render would be a good plan.  And insulate the timber floors while that is all going on.

That's exactly what we originally planned to do - problem is that the downstairs layout as it currently is really needs a rejig to work properly, and the bay windows at the front are a bit of a nightmare for the upstairs, so you end up retaining 3 outside walls and forcing yourself to do a stick-built timber frame on the top while still paying VAT on everything.

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, pdf27 said:

• Caravan in the garden isn't an option - the gap between the current house/attached garage and the boundaries on either side is only ~1m or so (the boundaries aren't quite square, and the house is slightly skewed on the plot - that or it's a slight rhomboid, I'd really have to dig out the measured survey to be certain), and the only road access is from the front. That means unless I can find someone with a large helicopter the caravan isn't getting in - and while the kids would be fine with it my wife would be climbing the walls within minutes.

 

Put it in the front garden then, looks to be plenty of space there. We though the same but when you know it's not forever then you can deal with it, really depends how badly you want the new house and how much you want to save money. We spent £700 for 18mo accommodation (Purchase - sale price) vs £2k a month rent. 

 

Regarding PM - its not an all consuming task - you know what you want, you do some research to buy it and you find decent trades to do it. You don't need to pick up as much as a screwdriver if you don't want to.

 

You will pay a significant overhead (20+%) for a general contractor to take full ownership or a formal PM and I guarantee you will be just as involved in decision making as if you were PMing it yourself.

 

You'll still want to make final decisions on design, details and finish - its not like you ever walk away from making these, difference is you can control the cost.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Bitpipe

[MikeSharp01]

Welcome and a couple of observations:

1. (Downer) Your toddlers won't be toddlers for long and they will soon be teenagers and then off to Uni or apprenticeship and won't need the new space you created for them 10 years back, you will have created your own millstone manor and have rooms you don't go in but you still have to pay for. Basically if you don't do it now the reason for doing it will go away to Uni!
2. (Upper) Toddlers are remarkably resilient and if you keep them involved they will be OK with some hardship and provided you do it when they have the capacity to remember the build they will feel part of it.
3. (Clincher) If you want / need a job doing just find a busy man & women who are organised, committed, capable and resilient themselves - sound like anybody you know.

Our example(s):

 

When we extended Millstone manor here in Kent I did it over three years by tackling a bit at a time while keeping the rest of the house largely intact and always wind and watertight. We built over the kitchen, without missing a meal, added a utility room - moved the downstairs toilet, added a downstairs wetroom built a double garage with and ensuite bedroom over and a front extension above the porch one section at a time. Our children were 9 and 11 when we started and they were somewhat involved but I wish I started sooner. Taking our time also meant we could do a lot out of revenue although we did also have a capital budget.

 

When I was a boy (13) may parents extended their home, I as the eldest, along with my mum (who by this time had 5 children - hence the increase in house size) were chief hod carriers, concrete layers and general hired hands. (Dad was out at work but the brickie did the bulk of the work.) Dad fitted out the extension and then knocked through so my three sisters (I ended up with 5) had a room each until my other two sisters came along. My brother and I were already sharing - shame on the parenting standards of the 1960 and 70s.

 

Both of which prove you can do it alongside a family you just need to think it through!

[SteamyTea]

Just going to say welcome.

And as an engineer, a house is a piece of cake, they don't have to land at 180MPH, at night, in the wet, with a cross wind...

[pdf27]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

Just going to say welcome.

And as an engineer, a house is a piece of cake, they don't have to land at 180MPH, at night, in the wet, with a cross wind...

Heh. I actually work on a subsystem where efficiency is at a huge premium so I spend my days chasing tens of watts around a system about which nobody knows very much. Sound familiar?

[Visti]

Welcome @pdf27!

 

I can't speak from experience, but I can point to the excellent advice about costings and quantity surveyors over at this topic. QED: Quantity Survey's build in a LOT of padding. Taking a serious look at the breakdown of the costs, what was realistic and what DIY elements we could do turned our near dead in the water project back within expectations. There's even a copy of the excel spreadsheet somewhere near the end if you want to use it 

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

And as an engineer, a house is a piece of cake, they don't have to land at 180MPH, at night, in the wet, with a cross wind...

 

Another Aerospace Engineer! One of the Airbus variety? 

[pdf27]

7 hours ago, Visti said:

Welcome @pdf27!

 

I can't speak from experience, but I can point to the excellent advice about costings and quantity surveyors over at this topic. QED: Quantity Survey's build in a LOT of padding. Taking a serious look at the breakdown of the costs, what was realistic and what DIY elements we could do turned our near dead in the water project back within expectations. There's even a copy of the excel spreadsheet somewhere near the end if you want to use it 

 

Another Aerospace Engineer! One of the Airbus variety? 

Yeah, I'm not so concerned about the actual prices quoted - it's essentially a bill of materials and we didn't pay the guy enough to go around and get quotes for everything, and that has a lot of value in and of itself later in the process. What I am more worried about is that it's become very clear that the original plan of extending in stages and fitting out from income isn't viable - demolish/rebuild is clearly cheaper and gets a better result which will have more final value. The QS prediction for a dry shell upstairs, new windows and fitting external wall insulation downstairs was ~80k +VAT, and that would (eventually) get us to EnerPHit: a couple of the timber frame companies recommended on here quoted on the basis of rebuild only at less than that for an insulated Passivhaus shell, albeit with no windows. Sure I could and would trim costs back - no way would I pay £10k for painting, for instance - but it doesn't change the fact that plan A was the wrong way to go.

 

I'm at a Tier 1 supplier, most of what we do goes to Airbus but not all. I qualified in Aero but have been Mechanical ever since.