Half of California's Solar Power Sometimes Goes to Waste

[Alan Ambrose]

Original fairly techy and detailed report here:

 

https://ecoblock.berkeley.edu/blog/californias-growing-solar-and-wind-problem/#

 

Summary here:

 

https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-11-24/california-has-so-much-solar-power-that-increasingly-it-goes-to-waste

 

 

So, will we get the same thing here one day?

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Hopefully.

 

We have about 90 GW of conventional generation in the UK, our current demand is 41 GW, so rather a non story.

[Mike]

From the last story:

 

Gov. Gavin Newsom's advisors and those who manage the state's electric grid say they are working to reduce the curtailments, including by building more industrial-scale battery Storage facilities that soak up the excess solar power during the day and then release it at night.

 

Which is sensible, if overdue.

[Alan Ambrose]

I'm thinking that we're going to end up flipping from E7-like cheap night leccy to cheap day leccy and expensive night time, no? Well, at least in the summer. On Octopus Agile (which is meant to reflect the 1/2 hour market rates) by and large I'm seeing fairly flat rates throughout the day & night except for Octopus's artificial bump between 4 & 7pm.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Alan Ambrose

[Mike]

  On 27/11/2024 at 13:51, Alan Ambrose said:

I'm thinking that we're going to end up flipping from E7-like cheap night leccy to cheap day leccy and expensive night time, no? Well, at least in the summer.

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You're right - In France that seems likely from next summer. According to the Regulator: To take account of changes in the electricity production mix and the abundance of summer photovoltaic production, stakeholders are being consulted on the gradual adoption of summer afternoon off-peak hours from August 2025"

 

Original in French: https://www.cre.fr/actualites/toute-lactualite/la-cre-consulte-sur-le-futur-tarif-dutilisation-des-reseaux-publics-delectricite-turpe-7-transport-et-distribution-pour-la-periode-2025-2028.html

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Interesting...

[Alan Ambrose]

Another one:

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-11-17/solar-flooded-australia-told-its-okay-to-waste-some/104606640

 

The article makes an interesting point about how that affects grid stability / resilience as well as prices.

[SteamyTea]

If you are interested in load balancing, this NFUEnergy explains the TRIAD sessions that the grid operator uses.

 

https://www.nfuenergy.co.uk/in-focus/what-are-triads-and-will-they-affect-you

 

 

[saveasteading]

When the sun shines and I stay indoors, is the sun going to waste?

 

[SteamyTea]

  On 04/12/2024 at 08:15, saveasteading said:

When the sun shines and I stay indoors, is the sun going to waste?

 

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Only if you anthropomorphize it.

[joe90]

  On 04/12/2024 at 08:15, saveasteading said:

When the sun shines and I stay indoors, is the sun going to waste?

 

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No because it’s still hitting solar panels and warming the air 🤷‍♂️

[SteamyTea]

  On 04/12/2024 at 09:11, joe90 said:

No because it’s still hitting solar panels and warming the air 🤷‍♂️

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There is a change in the albedo.

But

 

Energy Can Neither Be Created Nor Destroyed

 

So it will be doing something, somewhere.

[Alan Ambrose]

Re: Triads. Goodness gracious, the production of leccy is complicated. It’s reassuring to know that it all revolves around tea:

 

Triads typically occur on a Monday to Thursday, during periods of particularly cold weather, at around 5-7pm – when industrial demand and the domestic tea-time period coincide.

 

And it is going to waste if you’re the guy that footed the capital cost for the PV array. Or even the society that conspired to make productive capital available for investment. No?

[SteamyTea]

  On 04/12/2024 at 09:19, Alan Ambrose said:

And it is going to waste if you’re the guy that footed the capital cost for the PV array

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In economics, as opposed to accountancy, if you get your expected return on capital investment i.e. 6%, then it does not matter what happens to any excess.

  On 04/12/2024 at 09:19, Alan Ambrose said:

Or even the society that conspired to make productive capital available for investment

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This is where venture capitalism comes into play, they can decide that 6% return on investment is not enough and start to skew the market.

[Benpointer]

  On 04/12/2024 at 09:18, SteamyTea said:

There is a change in the albedo.

But

 

Energy Can Neither Be Created Nor Destroyed

 

So it will be doing something, somewhere.

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E=mc² ?

[Gus Potter]

  On 04/12/2024 at 08:27, SteamyTea said:

Only if you anthropomorphize it.

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@SteamyTea Had to look that word up!

 

In retort. Genetic algorithsims.

 

I had a dabble in this at uni as we were looking for a way of getting to grips with cold formed steel distorsional buckling behavoir.. but the Yanks / folk in AU got there with a "simple solution" that did not require massive computing power.

 

For the novice (me) mathematician.. we have numbers called imaginary numbers... it's to do with calculus... which us as SE have a interest in? For the remotely interested. An imaginary number is something we introduce to an equation at the beginning to make it work.. and at the end it disappears again! I'm not shitting you!

 

And now you may be wondering why you trust folk like me to design your house! It's ok in my day job I'm grounded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

  On 26/11/2024 at 19:37, SteamyTea said:

We have about 90 GW of conventional generation in the UK, our current demand is 41 GW, so rather a non story

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Aye on the top line full poke for about half an hour to and hour but we have and always have has a contractural obligation to supply to the EU..so they take some of our power and leave us looking daft and our pensioners freezing.

 

I studied this at uni and we have never had 90GW able to cope with a 4 hour peak supply under our own UK steam that was available soley to us without breaching our EU contractural obligations. We have signed up to make the French / Germans cosy!

 

Now even if you take pure peak delivery. Some of that comes from the Scottish Hydro.. (pump stograge) but once the head water is exhuasted it takes time to pump back up... days The 90 GW is bollocks!

 

@SteamyTea

 

We do not have 90 GW reliable supply in the UK. It is far from a non story. We are in / close to shit street! For interest.. I worked on the construction of Torness Nuclear Station and then designed some stuff for the decomissioning of the Bradlwell Station.

 

As a point of note. Biomass takes time to crank up.. oh like a coal station..it takes time to heat up. Wind turbines.. well you don't get peak wind over a whole large wind farm.

 

Twenty years ago we had from recollection some 64 GW of balanced supply. There is no way that has jumped to 90 GW.. even if it had the transmission system has not kept up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by Gus Potter

[SteamyTea]

  On 16/12/2024 at 02:09, Gus Potter said:

we have numbers called imaginary numbers... it's to do with calculus

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We have 'partial differential equations' that have to be solved.

Partial solutions to equations is easier.

  On 15/12/2024 at 20:32, Benpointer said:

E=mc²

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That is internal, or intrinsic energy, it is based on Newtonian Mechanics though.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> In economics, as opposed to accountancy, if you get your expected return on capital investment i.e. 6%, then it does not matter what happens to any excess.

 

I’ve never come across an investor, who although planning for a 6% return wouldn’t happily take a 9% return.

[Benpointer]

  On 16/12/2024 at 08:46, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> In economics, as opposed to accountancy, if you get your expected return on capital investment i.e. 6%, then it does not matter what happens to any excess.

 

I’ve never come across an investor, who although planning for a 6% return wouldn’t happily take a 9% return.

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Who could possibly begrudge their financial adviser creaming off the 3%?

[saveasteading]

  On 16/12/2024 at 03:31, Gus Potter said:

contractual obligation to supply to the EU..

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My understanding is that the contract is reciprocal , but the reality is that the SE imports and never exports.