Orkney long house - concept drawings

[westbound]

Following up to my introduction post, posting a few sketches of the concept house we'd like to build in Orkney.

 

These drawings are done by myself, so there's no professional input or any construction experience - they're probably quite unrealistic. My wife and I designed this with a view of "this would be our ideal", to be able to start communicating clearly with a surveyor about what we want (to try and make those conversations as clear as possible). We're pragmatically expecting to scale down.

 

A self-build lender suggested we could borrow about £450k for the build, but I think that would push the value of the property to be too high if we were ever to resell (mid 30s). My aim would be to do it for less than £350k, but that would require something of the order of £1,750 per m2 and that's unlikely given the remoteness. I wouldn't be surprised if footprint needs to come down. That said, the concept we've put together is trying to save costs - if you have any suggestions, we're all ears.

 

External view

 

Floor plan sketches

 

Basic thinking going into this design:

 

• Aligned east-west for the sea view to the east, and hills view to the west. Additional windows on south to maximise light in the winter
• Gabled, rectangular box with a long aspect ratio, partly because we like the long house format, but also to keep the roof simple
• 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 1 office (I am work from home), 1 mudroom/laundry/store room, 1 snug
• Very large open plan living area (kitchen/lounge) for long winters hiding from the wind
• Major glass feature on east wall for the view in triple-glazed aluminium. Estimated it to be about £32k alone, based on it being roughly 24m2 at about £1,300 per m2
• Bedrooms/bathrooms/office/mechanical room are all single height (2.3m), with the kitchen and lounge being full-height to celebrate the gabled roof and large window wall
• Plumbing in bathrooms is stacked vertically, and bathrooms located on laundry/kitchen side of house to keep plumbing together
• Kitchen is based off a DIY Kitchens modular build (exactly), which I've put together myself in past and is a great cost-saving, delivery issues aside
• Apart from the feature glass wall, all the windows are sized to line up with the ICF blocks, and external doors are lined up with the ICF layout
• Size of building is similar in footprint to neighbouring properties
• Love Passivhaus concepts, but not going for full Passivhaus approach. ICF airtightness/insulation, MVHR, air source heat pump. If budget allowed, the south-facing long axis of house would be perfect for solar
• I work from home, so a larger-than-necessary office (could compromise), and my wife is gorgeous/dreams of having a walk-in closet (could compromise) - representing two things we'd love to have if possible

 

Some aspects to keeping cost down:

 

• Lot of effort in design to try keep the plumbing localised
• Polished concrete floor downstairs rather than hardwood/carpets/etc (bedroom carpets could come later)
• DIY kitchen apart from plumbing and 32A supply
• DIY internal timber cladding to reduce total amount of plastering (labour and labour accommodation costs might offset timber cladding?)
• Built-in shelves/internal doors done by us, I have a CNC
• We'd love to have the functional parts of the house (MVHR ducting, plumbing, electrics) to actually be visible features - e.g. metal conduits visible, rather than concealing them - possible cost savings during fitting stage?
• No skylights, all windows are same size apart from feature wall (and fixed due to MVHR)

We're new to this, so if people have any suggestions, we're flexible in terms of adapting our expectations to make this happen.

 

Where we're at: 

 

Just about to start the planning permission process. Ideally, I'd love to get an estimate via a surveyor/builder in terms of whether they feel this is achievable within our budget (including scaling up DIY if needed) so that we can commit to the larger-than-expected footprint, else we'll have to shrink that down.

 

 

 

Edited November 24 by westbound

[ProDave]

A bit confused on the floor plan.  Which is your main entrance door?  The stairs appear not to be in a normal entrance hall but down a corridor?

 

Why is top floor seemingly only using half the available space?

 

For that style of house, I recommend a gut roof construction hung from an end to end ridge beam.  That gives you unhindered space in the roof space.  Easy to make it a warm roof with air tight detail at ceiling level, meaning even any eaves space is warm and incorporated within the insulated air tight structure.

 

If you need extra headroom e.g for a bathroom create a little gable end in the roof structure for that.

[westbound]

Added a floorplan with labels.

 

• Most commonly used entrance would be on north side - dog walking with a mudroom
• Second entrance (south side) would be the "formal entrance" - not going through a store room with dog cleaning being the main mission
• Top floor is based on lowest part of ceiling being at 1800mm, and vacancies being used for storage (travel bags, detritus from having a young family)
• Top floor only extends half-way on east-west axis to give a ridiculous full-height living space - concept/dream that we'll likely have to compromise on
• Stairs are down a corridor, yes...the (maybe misguided) logic being separating out private areas and public areas, with staircase also being centrally positioned to reduce need for an upstairs hallways
• Fully aware it's not the most efficient use of space - we're still trying to work out the architect/designer/surveyor gambit - slow responses so far, so have been sketching in mean time

Edited November 24 by westbound
Clarifying location of two entrances, and adding point that living area is full-height

[ProDave]

I see one upstairs bedroom is proposed with a balcony overlooking the full height living room.  I feel fairly certain that Scottish regs require all bedrooms to have a means of escape window, and I doubt that includes climbing off a balcony to a downstairs room. So you will probably have to re think that.  A dormer or gable end as I did will solve that.

[westbound]

Thanks, will have a think about the window upstairs.

 

I've said we have a preference for ICF but not committed if it's impractical.

 

With that in mind, assuming we did do ICF for the main walls, any suggestions on how to handle the feature glass wall? Something like a custom made SIP that gets made off-site, then assemble it and the windows at the same time on-site?

[Jenki]

Resale values especially remote islands will be hard to justify. 

House prices are a lot lower.  Our build was on a tight budget, and we have achieved a great performing house. If we had used contractors I'm sure the build costs would have  exceeded market value. 

 

I understand the double height ceiling concept but with this brings the issues as @ProDave mentions and also complexity with steel, wind bracing etc. these complexities will cost considerably more due to location.  

We built all on the ground floor so made the house bigger (longer ) than necessary,this was due to future planning, no stairs etc for our older age, I'm only leaving this house in a box, or because I cant remember my name. 

Structurally the engineers were much happier using trusses. If we would have wanted cut roof and steels I'm convinced there would have been even more reinforcement on the walls( we used around 1.8kM of rebar), also we would have had to use cast in anchors for the wall plates these were ridiculous cost. Our build was 13m long, 2 bed simple design.

We could have shrunk that if we went for rooms in the roof. I blogged my build on here look for #thewindyroost. Good luck 

 

[ProDave]

Cut roof does not mean steels.  Ours used Kerto beams for the ridge, less bulky that Glulam for a given strength.

 

 

That also shows the "gable end" type of dormer we used.

[ProDave]

Re the big gable end glass wall.  That is where you will probably need steels.  But all can be avoided if you compromise a little.

 

This is our "gable end glass" wall in our sun room.

 

 

By breaking it down into 2 windows with a central support, that supports the ridge beam and it is all done in timber.

[ETC]

You’ll need to separate the kitchen from the rest of the house - especially the staircase.

[Jenki]

3 minutes ago, westbound said:

 

With that in mind, assuming we did do ICF for the main walls, any suggestions on how to handle the feature glass wall? Something like a custom made SIP that gets made off-site, then assemble it and the windows at the same time on-site?

This will end up with the structural engineer..one reason we changed from timber to ICF, was the engineer reinforcing the timber frame due to location. He doubled up all the OSB, made some internal walls structural to support the external walls and added proprietary Sheer walls in each gable which were around £1k each, and seemed impossible to get hold of.

I'm sure you will end up with a steel portal frame, the detailing to eliminate cold bridging will be essential.

 

[joe90]

@ProDave I love the “cat ramp” (I presume. ) could be a little more elegant tho 🤷‍♂️

[ProDave]

That was a temporary ramp to keep the cat happy.  I later added a platform outside the flap, and then a step lower down.  The cat loved it. and BCO at completion thought it was a nice touch and commented on it.

 

Sadly I don't have a picture of it yet.

 

 

[westbound]

1 hour ago, Jenki said:

I understand the double height ceiling concept but with this brings the issues as @ProDave mentions and also complexity with steel, wind bracing etc. these complexities will cost considerably more due to location.  

 

We could have shrunk that if we went for rooms in the roof. I blogged my build on here look for #thewindyroost. Good luck 

 

 

Yeah, I really wouldn't be surprised if double-height goes, we're still very much in dream land around concepts. 

 

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

By breaking it down into 2 windows with a central support, that supports the ridge beam and it is all done in timber.

 

Central support makes a lot of sense, great shout. Not even a compromise, nice feature.

[Jenki]

45 minutes ago, westbound said:

 

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

By breaking it down into 2 windows with a central support, that supports the ridge beam and it is all done in timber.

 

Central support makes a lot of sense, great shout. Not even a compromise, nice feature.

I would look at having that open gable split with the master bedroom looking out of that and possibly a balcony. You could probably shrink the length of the house that way. 

Don't underestimate the solar gain from such an expanse of glass, and losses in winter 

[westbound]

Surveyor currently on holiday, so tinkering with plans based on some of the feedback here.

• Overall footprint reduced to 8.3m x 17.2m
• Fire-door added between kitchen and stairs, and all bedrooms have an exit that doesn't go via kitchen
• Still need to get to grips with Scottish building regs on fire exit windows in bedrooms - skylight is an option for top windowless room
• Sounds like the balcony might work if the sliding door is fire rated
• Added an indication that window feature can have central support, awaiting proper design
• Overall internal footprint is about 160m3, for a two-adult-two-kids scenario, plus guest room 

 

[Iceverge]

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

Major glass feature on east wall for the view in triple-glazed aluminium. Estimated it to be about £32k alone, based on it being roughly 24m2 at about £1,300 per m2

 

O 

V

E

R

H

E

A

T

I

N

G

 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

all single height (2.3m

 

Too low in my opinion. 2.5m minimum. 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

• Aligned east-west for the sea view to the east, and hills view to the west. Additional windows on south to maximise light in the winter
• Gabled, rectangular box with a long aspect ratio, partly because we like the long house format, but also to keep the roof simple
• 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 1 office (I am work from home), 1 mudroom/laundry/store room, 1 snug
• Very large open plan living area (kitchen/lounge) for long winters hiding from the wind

 

Great. 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

Plumbing in bathrooms is stacked vertically, and bathrooms located on laundry/kitchen side of house to keep plumbing together

 

Top class. Our plumbers didn't charge less though, just went home earlier. It's one aspect I would deffo DIY if doing it again. 

 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

Love Passivhaus concepts, but not going for full Passivhaus approach.

 

Why not? Don't bother with certification but a proper passive class house isn't that dear if done right and is very nice to live in.

 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

DIY internal timber cladding to reduce total amount of plastering (labour and labour accommodation costs might offset timber cladding?)

 

Timber is dear! Plasterboard is cheap and better for sound  fire/resistance etc. 

 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

We'd love to have the functional parts of the house (MVHR ducting, plumbing, electrics) to actually be visible features - e.g. metal conduits visible, rather than concealing

 

Cool but unlikely to be cheaper if done to a good standard. Plastic pipes and MVHR ducting might be a matter of taste. 

 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

all windows are same size apart

 

I did this and it didn't actually save any money. 

 

On 24/11/2024 at 13:38, westbound said:

and fixed due to MVHR)

 

Consider cross ventilation. Ours all open despite MVHR. You can clean them from inside and sometimes it's nice to just let a summer breeze blow through the house. 

 

On 24/11/2024 at 14:07, westbound said:

Top floor is based on lowest part of ceiling being at 1800mm

 

You can comfortably walk to 1500mm as our heads tend to be central on our bodies! Down to 1200mm I would consider useable space. A 40deg roof I found the best compromise for room in the roof. 

 

 

Even at 160m² footprint it's still very large for the total area IMO.  Have a go at paring everything to the minimum and see where you get to. 

 

Then selectively increase the rooms you want to feel more luxurious. 

Edited November 26 by Iceverge

[Iceverge]

I would put the MVHR further away from the bedroom. They are quiet but you'll hear it in that bedroom if it's there. 

 

A few tricks to make a house feel more spacious. Put windows on 2 walls on a room if possible. South and west walls for example in the ground floor SW bedroom. It also helps with cross ventilation. 

 

Have a window at the end of a corridor or room or stairs makes it more inviting. "Light at the end of a tunnel effect". 

 

Before you commit to ICF, consider visiting the local builders merchants and find out what they have on the shelf. Being able to grab a few blocks or Hep2O junctions or timbers at 5 mins notice can mean the house gets finished months earlier over waiting for a specialised bit of material from far far away. 

 

That gable window is going to be a mare. It'll cook the kitchen or freeze you in winter. The best windows are still 5 times worse than the worst wall in a new house, in terms of heat loss.

 

Perhaps a couple of pairs of french doors with side lights and a few fixed rectangular units up high. 

 

It might save you £25k. 

Edited November 26 by Iceverge

[ProDave]

46 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

A 40deg roof I found the best compromise for room in the roof. 

This is Scotland, 45 degree is normal, and there are very many constructional reasons why 45 degrees is so much easier than anything else.

 

Agree 2300 ceiling height is too low.  "normal" 2400 at least.

[Iceverge]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

This is Scotland, 45 degree is normal, and there are very many constructional reasons why 45 degrees is so much easier than anything else.

 

Agree 2300 ceiling height is too low.  "normal" 2400 at least.

 

Just from my sketching the additional 5deg doesn't really gain much head room for the extra ridge height and the planners near me are very keen on making houses as low as possible. 

 

However from an ease of carpentry and materials use point of view it absolutely makes sense. 

 

What other benefits have you got in mind?

 

@westbound a ridge beam carrying the roof as mentioned above is a really good way to build in airtighess etc. Much easier than trusses and wouldn't need a crane. 

 

With this in mind you'll need some central support column to carry the load of the roof to the foundation. 

 

 

 

 

You could also do it like this by having a lintel carrying the load to two walls. 

 

Just make sure that the walls line up upstairs and downstairs. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26 by Iceverge

[ProDave]

Yes we have an 11 metre long ridge beam, too long to be self supporting over that length, but supported by the 2 walls either side of the stairwell, making the longest span between supports 5 metres.

 

And exactly like the sketch above, that load is split either side of a doorway with a lintel.  All specified by the SE.  The SE also specified how it all fits together including some fancy metal straps to attach the rafters to the ridge beam and specifying what fixings to use.

[westbound]

Wow @Iceverge and @ProDave, this is so helpful.

 

Thank you.

 

Will digest outside of work hours. Really means a lot, I'm diving into the deep end of a subject I don't know a huge amount about, so having discussions like this is so helpful to learning a bit quicker!

[ETC]

Your stairs won’t work.

[westbound]

Thanks for the help. Based on the feedback here, I've come up with a much more efficient footprint of 14.5m x 8.5m, 1.5 storey, with no full-height living space or overly fancy gabled windows, that ultimately gives more internal space than the previous concepts.

 

It's probably a more comfortable house to live in, and is far more realistic, although is definitely a bit of a "plain box" (that we could probably add a bit of spice to with some thought). We're slightly struggling with the feeling that it's quite similar to the boring new builds we see, and it's not particularly exciting.

 

It's definitely something we're struggling between, where the mind is saying "keep it simple, comfortable and affordable", and the heart is going, "if you're going through the effort of self-building, make it a bit more interesting".

 

I'm an engineer, so practical/function wins...but also willing to explore options before they're closed out! With that last bit in mind, I'm wondering if the experts here could help contextualise something for me?

 

How much harder/expensive/riskier would it be to build two, smaller long houses, connected by a flat-roofed "tunnel"?

• Assuming both are single storey, with exactly the same external dimensions so that ridge beams/joists/etc can all be sized the same (two smaller rectangular roofs versus one larger rectangular roof)
• Rough dimensions of each would be 15m x 5.5m, with a 5.5m x 4m flat roof tunnel connecting them
• With a rough sketch, it looks like enough internal supports could be worked in quite easily for the ridge beam to be supported every 5 metres or so
• Overall area of foundations and roof goes up (single storey), but height of overall building goes down and no need for structural second floor

 

The floor plan below is just a 30 minute sketch - no real thought into it.

 

 

So far we've constrained ourselves to thinking in a rectangular build, and never really explored anything beyond that. Is this worth spending architect/surveyor hours developing, or does the increased foundation/roof size just make it an impractical idea?

 

 

[Iceverge]

10 hours ago, westbound said:

I'm an engineer, so practical/function wins...but also willing to explore options before they're closed out! With that last bit in mind, I'm wondering if the experts here could help contextualise something for me?

 

For our interest assign a nominal U value of say 0.15w/m²K per m² to the wall floor and roof of both designs and have a look at how much heat you loose in each design on a 5 deg day for both designs and post is the results. 

 

There's nothing stopping "plain" houses being pretty if it's a well balanced design. 

 

HebHomes have some good examples. 

 

 

 

If you MUST add complications I would do it in the form of external pergolas, car ports and porches. 

 

Keep the insulated envelope simple. 

 

[Iceverge]

Another point that crossed my mind, given your location, is transport costs for trusses and posijoists. 

 

Perhaps look at keeping the spans of the roof and first floor to that which can be accommodated economically by sawn lumber which are off the shelf in your merchants. 

 

4m is a good guide for first floor joists and 5m for rafters. It'll require some fiddling for MVHR and waste pipes but you seem well on top of that. 

 

https://www.taylormaxwell.co.uk/uploads/files/D.100.02-01_C24-Span-Tables_Design_Span-Tables.pdf

Edited Friday at 09:33 by Iceverge