How do social relations shape the adoption of heat pumps in the UK?

[sgt_woulds]

" In the vast majority of cases the noise is no more than (and frequently a lot less than, any of these things we are all very much used to and accept. "

 

Change that to: 'things we are forced to listen to and aren't given a choice about'...

 

There is a very real difference between noise that is natural and that living creatures have evolved with, and continuous artificial noises.  It creates low-level stress which raises blood pressure and increases inflammation leading to long-term medical conditions.  

 

Road noise is truly awful - I really looking forward to the mass adoption of EV's as this will reduce considerably - although a large proportion of the noise we hear at a distance is tyre roar and air displacement.  If cars had only been invented last week people would be up in arms about the stink and hubbub - sound barriers would be imposed on every road.

 

We should learn from our mistakes with future technologies, not add to the problem.

 

The real solution, (until ASHP noise attenuation is improved) is building / upgrading to good standards and using MVHR with heating - keeping any associated noise inside the building envelope.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

33 minutes ago, G and J said:

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

 

 

 

 

Is that the forum equivalent of a blank look?

Now that is a good thought.

 

It double posted as I was editing, then when I tried to delete the duplicate, it just took the text away.  Hopefully an administrator will come and delete it.

[sgt_woulds]

Tough Buttercup - a couple for starters 🙂

 

 

For Humans:

 

How Different Sound Levels Can Affect You - Noise Project  -  not section on dB ranges and effects - 40-50 dB range is where most problems start - the same range as most ASHP

 

Noise Pollution Isn’t Just Annoying — It’s Bad for Your Health (brainfacts.org)

 

Noise and mental health: evidence, mechanisms, and consequences | Journal of Exposure Science & Environmental Epidemiology (nature.com)

 

The Effect of Noise Exposure on Cognitive Performance and Brain Activity Patterns - PMC (nih.gov)

 

Crosstalk between Oxidative Stress and Inflammation Caused by Noise and Air Pollution—Implications for Neurodegenerative Diseases (mdpi.com)

 

 

For Wildlife:

 

Evidence of the impact of noise pollution on biodiversity: a systematic map | Environmental Evidence | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)

 

Frontiers | How chronic anthropogenic noise can affect wildlife communities (frontiersin.org)

 

Songbirds affected by human noise pollution | Interviews | Naked Scientists (thenakedscientists.com)

 

Anthropogenic noise affects insect and arachnid behavior, thus changing interactions within and between species - ScienceDirect

 

 

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

Road noise is truly awful - I really looking forward to the mass adoption of EV's as this will reduce considerably

Most unmodified cars make more noise from their tyres than the induction/exhaust systems, so you are going to be disappointed.

19 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

until ASHP noise attenuation is improved

As @JamesPa says, it is physics, you are not going to change that.

 

Maybe the real solution is a massive increase in RE generation, then we can just run resistance heating for thermals outputs.

My storage heater is heading into its 38^th winter without any replacement, maintenance or noise.

Actually that gives me a thought, why not get the people that complain about the noise from an ASHP to pay the difference between the CoP of say 3 and the CoP of 1 for resistance heating.  Many people move to the countryside, at great expense, for the peace and quiet, so the conce3pt is not new.  You want something, you pay for it.

Edited October 16 by SteamyTea

[Kelvin]

3 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

No fear of change.  ASHP is a great technology that needs to be refined to remove the annoyance to others.  I fully agree that it needs to be rolled out as quickly as possible - but not in it's current form.

 

Electric cars are great, noise is reduced to tyre friction and a low hum.  Then some people say they need to make more noise as people cannot hear them coming so the noise pollution is built back into them!

 

I'm glad you want to save the planet - I do too.  But I don't want to hear you do it...

Most road noise you hear is from the tyres. Modern ICE cars are relatively quiet at a constant throttle. 
 

Gas boiler flues can be quite noisy too. Our MVHR makes more noise than the ASHP and it’s running 24/7. 

Edited October 16 by Kelvin

[JamesPa]

59 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Actually that gives me a thought, why not get the people that complain about the noise from an ASHP to pay the difference between the CoP of say 3 and the CoP of 1 for resistance heating.  Many people move to the countryside, at great expense, for the peace and quiet, so the conce3pt is not new.  You want something, you pay for it.

At present a COP of 1 gives no carbon advantage.  Obviously this will change as the grid decarbonises.

 

As to the central issue, objections to heat pumps, people will use almost any excuse to delay doing what they need (but don't want) to do. 

 

In fact its pretty classic, first deny the problem, then, when the evidence is incontrovertible, accept it but claim that current solutions aren't adequate and/or propose interim non-solutions and/or say we cant afford it, then say its too late anyway.  That what big oil is doing and has been doing since the 1970s.  Had we started doing something about it then it would be a lot less painful.  Now there is no pain free way left open to us.

 

It would be more honest if those who don't want to do anything about it for selfish reasons just say so.  But of course then they would leave themselves open to criticism!

Edited October 16 by JamesPa

[sgt_woulds]

I'm assuming you aren't including me as one of the denialists?

 

The problem is not debated - the solution is!

 

My objection is to noise pollution, not heat pumps.  A properly noise-attenuated housing is fundamentally possible.  The problem is cost, not physics... 

 

 

 

 

[JamesPa]

10 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

I'm assuming you aren't including me as one of the denialists?

 

The problem is not debated - the solution is!

 

My objection is to noise pollution, not heat pumps.  A properly noise-attenuated housing is fundamentally possible.  The problem is cost, not physics... 

 

 

 

 

Im not including anyone specific, but there clearly are such people.

 

However I do fear that your statement that heat pumps should not be deployed in their current state and that you don't want to hear others save the planet indicates that you may be in the delay, possibly until its too late, category.  Adding noise attenuation to our existing housing stock before we deploy heat pumps, as you appear to suggest, isn't realistic.  Many argue that heat pumps are already rather expensive and that is certainly true, so we also have to be careful not to add unnecessary cost otherwise its another backdoor way to delay.  Furthermore there are many circumstances where heat pumps installed now do not make any more noise than any of the other disturbances we accept so there is no logical reason not to accept these.  Existing nuisance laws protect us all from neighbours that are unreasonably noisy.  

 

The unfortunate fact of life is that we live in a crowded world that is going to get catastrophically more crowded if we don't fix climate change.  We left it too late to do it without accepting some inconvenience, so inconvenience we must accept.  

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16 by JamesPa

[sgt_woulds]

 

Not at all.  This would curb the idiots with loud exhausts, etc.  Stationary / crawling traffic is mostly about engine noise.  People living on high-traffic streets should welcome mass adoption of EV's.

 

As I've said myself, distant road noise is mostly about tyre friction and air movement and these are both being improved by manufacturers driven by the move to electric vehicles.

 

Quieter cars drive NVH reduction, of which tyres are a major cause.  New compounds and carcasses are being developed to reduce friction and resonant noise in tyres.

 

Vehicle Cd figures will also improve to maximise range and this will also reduce wind noise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[G and J]

So to be clear @sgt_woulds, what heating should I build into my new house when I install it next year?

 

We have close neighbours either side, gas is already at the bungalow we are demolishing, and low running costs is an important factor or us.

[saveasteading]

21 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

A properly noise-attenuated housing is fundamentally possible.  The problem is cost, not physics... 

Not difficult. A very long time ago I looked into noise reduction from road traffic. The answers then were 2 options. 1. Hit and miss on both sides, staggered, vertically boarded fences. This messes with the frequency and is more effective than a solid reflector.

2. Rambling Rose hedges....not quite as good or predictable and need looking after.

 

So it has surely been proven already. Hit and miss enclosure, approx 1.5m from the pump, drawing in air on 3 sides and expelling upwards. OR expel sideways with barrier further away.

 

Cost???? A standard thing for £500?

[JamesPa]

19 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Not difficult. A very long time ago I looked into noise reduction from road traffic. The answers then were 2 options. 1. Hit and miss on both sides, staggered, vertically boarded fences. This messes with the frequency and is more effective than a solid reflector.

2. Rambling Rose hedges....not quite as good or predictable and need looking after.

 

So it has surely been proven already. Hit and miss enclosure, approx 1.5m from the pump, drawing in air on 3 sides and expelling upwards. OR expel sideways with barrier further away.

 

Cost???? A standard thing for £500?

Easy to say, but not available as an accepted manufactured solution (and not always practical).  What is available and accepted is an acoustic enclosure costing 4K.

 

Installations under PD (and doubtless most where there is express planning consent) are designed to meet MCS-020, which is derived from the 'desirable' levels specified in BS 8233.  Why is that not good enough - why has BS8233 acceptable for everything else but not for heat pumps?  Because they are 'new' whereas other equally or more invasive noise is 'old'?  Fear of/prejudice against novelty which is in essence fear of change blocking the mitigation of climate change which, it seems, is not denied as a problem.

Edited October 16 by JamesPa

[sgt_woulds]

Exactly.  I visited one of our solar customers who was an early adopter of GSHP.  (it didn't work as it was undersized, but that is a whole other bag of fish...)

 

This was one of the quieter pumps I've heard but sitting outside her cottage enjoying a cup of tea in rural Oxfordshire it could be clearly heard.

 

She built a hit and miss enclosure out of clay lump and wattle and daube panels and trained ivy up the up the side nearest the house.  Made it effectively silent for my next visit half a year later.

 

I was involved in a project installing solar PV noise reduction road barriers for a short section of motorway on the south coast.  The difference this made to very loud traffic noise a couple of yards behind it was dramatic.  Imagine what could be done with a much quieter noise source like a heat pump.

 

To modify my earlier statement:   The problem is respect for others and a bit of extra effort, not physics... 

 

 

[sgt_woulds]

Why is that not good enough - why has BS8233 acceptable for everything else but not for heat pumps?

 

Because this was written by people who didn't have to live with the noise and without consultation with the public at large.

[IanR]

5 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

introduce a legal noise testing regime, 

 

There is. There's a 42 decibel limit at the neighbour's property, legally enforceable.

 

HP noise levels have been taken quite seriously since to some extent its constraining their role out in higher density housing areas.

 

I believe this is the most recent government report should you wish to know more:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/659bc3f2614fa2000df3a992/ashp-planning-regulations-review-main-report.pdf

 

It's not going to keep everyone happy, but ASHP rollout can't wait for a 100% thumbs up from the population.

[sgt_woulds]

There's a 42 decibel limit at the neighbour's property, legally enforceable.

 

Which is above the point at which many medical and science papers state is harmful.

[Kelvin]

The World is a noisy place. Background urban noise is in the 40dB-50dB range. 
 

I live very rurally surrounded by farmland. Over the course of the year there’s the constant noise of the rural countryside which is a lot of farm vehicles ploughing, planting, harvesting, moving stuff, and cutting stuff. Add in the burn that runs across our land, our two noisy sheep and you can’t hear either the ASHP or the MVHR extract unless you’re near them. If the wind is blowing in the right direction and it’s not too windy you can also hear the whoosh whoosh of the wind turbines that are 2 miles away up the Glen a bit. 

Edited October 16 by Kelvin

[IanR]

26 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

Which is above the point at which many medical and science papers state is harmful.

 

So you say. Fridges are typically at or above that level, washing machines and boilers far higher. I assume you have the same issue with those.

 

Added to avoid an additional post:

 

From the NoiseAwareness.org website. Some context for dBA levels

 

Edited October 16 by IanR

[sgt_woulds]

Yes, the world is noisy - the effects are cumulative - please don't add to it!

 

In most of the mass-produced housing estates with pocket handkerchief gardens all cheek-by-jowl a HP in every garden where you can never get more than a few meters away would be intolerable at 42 Db for most people who just want to relax quietly in their own little bit of space.  

 

Tractors are intermittent noise.  HP are daily scheduled nuisances.  I cannot comment much about wind turbines as although we live about 6 miles from a couple we can never hear them.

[Kelvin]

ASHP noise is intermittent and in a well insulated and well built house they might only be running for a handful of hours per day and only for a few months of the year. Farm machinery might be intermittent but it depends what they’re doing. At harvest time round us, for example, the combines are running for hours per day just at the point you might want to be sitting outside. Then if the grain is slightly damp they switch the driers on. We’re at the top of a hill a few miles from the farms too. Fortunately I like the sound of the countryside including all the farm machines. 

[saveasteading]

26 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

sitting outside her cottage enjoying a cup 

With a big garden, you don't have to sit next to it. For a smaller house and small garden I can see there are limited options. 

I've experienced pumps that are barely audible and others really noisy.

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

As @JamesPa says, it is physics, you are not going to change that.

I thought you could make ASHPs quieter by making them bigger. I don't know if that is because of larger fans spinning more slowly or thicker sound insulation inside the casing.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, sgt_woulds said:

Tough Buttercup - a couple for starters 🙂

 

Thanks very much.

I've read one or two, skimmed others, and the Abstracts of two.  The research cited appears not to address the issue of Low Level Background Noise. There are hints, but no real focus on low noise..... but this (in 

How Different Sound Levels Can Affect You) confirms my experience the     context  [of noise] is important   

Quote

40 dB to 50 dB

This decibel range is low risk. It is equivalent to sounds that are noticeable and can become disruptive depending on the environment—the humming of a fridge, a running stream, or other background noises. This range is associated with a lack of sleep, and prolonged exposure may also cause headaches and irritability. Chronic exposure to sound levels above this range can also lead to impaired cognitive function, especially in children. A study performed in 2008 found that noise led to primary school children developing a lack of motivation and reduced memory and reading comprehension. Children exposed to higher levels of noise had lower test scores. In general, the children in this study found it harder to focus because of the constant exposure to noise.  

https://noiseproject.org/how-different-sound-levels-can-affect-you/#:~:text=40 dB to 50 dB This decibel range,prolonged exposure may also cause headaches and irritability.

downloaded 16/10/2024

[JamesPa]

19 minutes ago, Gone West said:

I thought you could make ASHPs quieter by making them bigger. I don't know if that is because of larger fans spinning more slowly or thicker sound insulation inside the casing.

You can to a limited extent (for both reasons), which is one argument for increasing the PD volume limit.

 

However there is a practical limit to how big a box people can accommodate so it can only go so far.

[JamesPa]

46 minutes ago, sgt_woulds said:

Yes, the world is noisy - the effects are cumulative - please don't add to it!

 

In most of the mass-produced housing estates with pocket handkerchief gardens all cheek-by-jowl a HP in every garden where you can never get more than a few meters away would be intolerable at 42 Db for most people who just want to relax quietly in their own little bit of space.  

 

Tractors are intermittent noise.  HP are daily scheduled nuisances.  I cannot comment much about wind turbines as although we live about 6 miles from a couple we can never hear them.

Actually the PD limits are 37dB(A) , 42 dB(A) arises because a notional background of 40dB(A) is added to get a BS8233 compatible calculation.

 

If I install a heat pump I remove a gas boiler, so Im adding and subtracting at the same time, not just adding.

 

The birds are noisier than this, as is traffic noise in most places.  Mowers make a horrid noise and are intermittent which is worse.  Your next door neighbours talking, and certainly their children playing, are way noisier (unless you are so far from them that the heat pump noise is irrelevant).  

 

You say you want to 'save the planet', so what is your solution to domestic heating if heat pumps are so objectionable? 

Edited October 16 by JamesPa