BUS voucher and gas line

[allthatpebbledash]

Had no success in searching for the answer on here so wondering if someone can shed light on this.

 

Currently planning a deep retrofit. We are looking to replace the gas boiler with an ASHP for hot water and heating. And we want to keep the gas line to the property for the kitchen hob. Would the BUS grant still be available to us?

 

I’ve been advised to double check this as been told the gas line has to go completely and we would need to go with an induction hob instead. 

[Conor]

Get an induction hob anyway, far better job.

[JohnMo]

Go on to the government website and read the rules. Not sure it says gas has to be disconnected, but it explicitly says all heat and hot water has to come from the heat pump. Nothing in any rules I have heard about are banning gas hobs.

[Iceverge]

The standing charge for the gas would make it a very expensive way of cooking. 

 

Like said above, just buy an induction hob. If I could find one with remotely mounted dial controls it'd be absolute perfect. 

 

Otherwise a simple bottle of propane would last forever if you were just cooking with it. 

[Iceverge]

Out of interest why an ASHP?

 

Gas is reliable cheap and not too environmentally damaging. 

 

You may be better off just keeping the gas, investing on more insulation and solar PV. 

[JamesPa]

3 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Out of interest why an ASHP?

 

Gas is reliable cheap and not too environmentally damaging. 

Why an ashp?  Because your second sentence is utter nonsense.

[JamesPa]

@allthatpebbledash

 

Original legislation (as most recently amended), which is definitive, is here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/565/contents

 

I can't find any requirement to disconnect gas.  Nor have I seen this stated elsewhere in any guidance I have read.

 

Suggest you ask whoever advised you to give you the clause number.

Edited September 24 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

28 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Why an ashp?  Because your second sentence is utter nonsense.

NOx class 5 boiler - Less than 70 milligrams of nitrogen oxides (NOx) per kilowatt hour (mg/kWh), whike class 6 would be less than 56.

 

National grid in 2023 was supposed to be 750 mg/kWh. So a boiler on this is better.

 

But

 

CO2 generated by burning natural gas is 0.185 kg / kWh while English national grid is around 0.2 to 0.3 kg / kWh generally. But a well installed heat pump should be in the range of 300 to 400% efficient. So emissions drop to about 0.05 kg. So heat pump is loads better. Same is true for oil etc. Scottish national grid has way lower CO2 emissions so a no brainer from emissions perspective.

[Iceverge]

17 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Why an ashp?  Because your second sentence is utter nonsense.

 

Sorry if I've touched a nerve. 

 

Perhaps a more nuanced post would help. 

 

@allthatpebbledash could you maybe explain the lightly occupation patterns of your house and the details of the deep retrofit please. 

 

@JamesPa  is there ever a case for retaining an existing heating system and diverting money into the building fabric and renewables/EV or is it not an argument worth considering? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnMo]

26 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

@JamesPa  is there ever a case for retaining an existing heating system and diverting money into the building fabric and renewables/EV or is it not an argument worth considering

Don't believe @JamesPa has a heat pump - maybe not for the want of trying.

 

I believe the best bang for tax payers money, would be a simple hybrid boiler. Leave the whole heating system as is, plug in a 4kW small heat pump. It does everything down to 3 degs. If it's a combi boiler leave it to do DHW. Plus a fabric first approach.

 

 

[Iceverge]

Numbers always help. 

 

I'll try to keep them realistic. 

 

The post retrofit DHW might be 3000kWh/anum for a family. Heating say 7000kWh per annum. 10MWh total.

 

Scenario 1. A new ASHP and cylinder, UFH or large rads + 4kW PV making 2000kWh/annum for an outlay of £15,000. A generous COP of 4 inc DHW. Net 500kWh of energy imported at 0.25kg/kWh. 125kg/CO2/annum.  Excellent. 

 

Scenario 2. Retain the boiler, 0.185kg per kWh so 10MWh*0.185kg/kWh is 1850kg CO2 per year. Much worse. However you could then replace a family ICE car with an EV with the £15000 not spent. Displacing a net CO2e of 2500kg/annum. 

 

In scenario 2 the user would emit 2625kg less of CO2 per year by retaining a gas boiler and buying an EV. 

 

TLDR.

 

Boiler 1850kg CO2 per year. (£0)

ASHP/PV 125kg CO2 per year (£15000)

ICE 3200kg CO2 per year (£0)

EV 750kg C02 per year. (£15000)

 

ASHP + ICE = 3325kg/year 

EV + Boiler = 1975kg/year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mk1_man]

Could there be such a thing as a simple hybrid boiler.  I looked at hybrid approach prior to going the BUS route, although feasible it would have been far from simple.  Time will tell but really happy with my heat pump and performing brilliantly so far. Miles cheaper than my gas boiler.

 

Also, as per topic query.  There is no requirement to remove the gas supply, although unless you were wedded to gas hob why would you keep it.  I am just in process of getting my gas meter removed via Octopus as they do it for free.

 

[JohnMo]

7 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

£15,000

Seems excessive cost.

 

8 minutes ago, mk1_man said:

Could there be such a thing as a simple hybrid boiler

Yes Daikin do one, just tees ito existing system, but all heat pump can be hybridised if you want. Went through an exercise with my existing boiler and new ASHP. I connected via a plate exchanger all worked fine. If I actually use it different matter.

 

11 minutes ago, mk1_man said:

BUS route,

As I was saying you used £7.5k of tax payers money, a hybrid could be way cheaper. Get all the benefits of lower running costs and emissions when it's mild from ASHP and cheaper costs from gas when cold. Then make the Bus grant £3k, instead of £7500.

[Iceverge]

If I had £15000 to spend in a retrofit scenario and assuming a really good job on the airtighess, insulation and MVHR.

 

I would leave the gas in place. Put in a single £2000 A2A ASHP in the hallway to deal with the baseload of half the space heating. Then stick maybe 6kW pV on the roof and an immersion divert for £5000 and then buy an EV for £8000. 

 

CO2 would be roughly,

 

ASHP 220kgCO2/year. 

Boiler 1200kgCO2/year. 

PV -750kgCO2/year.

EV 750kgCO2/year. 

 

Nett emissions 980kg/yr. 

 

 

 

[Iceverge]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Seems excessive cost.

 

Perhaps for a cunning buildhubber who can DIY it but for a replumb and PV install fully paid for I don't know if it is. 

[mk1_man]

I don't entirely disagree with you re the £7.5k grant, however its available so why not use it.  What they need to do is reduce the grant to say £3-4k but remove requirement for it to be installed by MCS certified companies.  They are simpler to install than gas boilers so why tie the process up in red tape which a limited number of companies profit from.  Its the same with removing vat from insulation as an incentive, you can only access vat free insulation if you then pay through the nose for a certified company to install it.  Why can't I simply purchase 10 rolls of insulation myself from say B&Q and not pay the VAT on it.

[IGP]

1 hour ago, mk1_man said:

I don't entirely disagree with you re the £7.5k grant, however its available so why not use it.  What they need to do is reduce the grant to say £3-4k but remove requirement for it to be installed by MCS certified companies.  They are simpler to install than gas boilers so why tie the process up in red tape which a limited number of companies profit from.  Its the same with removing vat from insulation as an incentive, you can only access vat free insulation if you then pay through the nose for a certified company to install it.  Why can't I simply purchase 10 rolls of insulation myself from say B&Q and not pay the VAT on it.

Wholeheartedly agree. Same should be with the heat pump, the heat pump itself should be VAT free for whoever buys it, but for all practical purposes (HMRC admin) all the gubbins should only be VAT free if you’re getting as a supply & install job when retrofitting. 

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, Iceverge said:

@JamesPa  is there ever a case for retaining an existing heating system and diverting money into the building fabric and renewables/EV or is it not an argument worth considering? 

Environmentally probably not in most cases.  Heat pump will reduce CO2 emissions to 33% of emissions with fossil fuel, few properties could achieve that by fabric upgrades alone

 

That said there is good financial logic in first upgrading the fabric then doing the heat pump so on balance I dont see a reason to oppose that approach.

[JamesPa]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Don't believe @JamesPa has a heat pump - maybe not for the want of trying.

Correct sadly, its been a two year nightmare, thanks to the industry and more particularly a mad planning authority which, if you need/seek planning permission, requires a heat pump to be 50 times (17dB) quieter than national standards.  If I knew two years ago what I know now, I would have gone about this a different way!

 

However today there is light on the horizon in the form of the outcome from my planning appeal, which was to uphold the appeal and thus grant permission.  Better still the 'conditions' the planning inspector has imposed are more favourable (in my view) even than I had requested, and totally trash the conditions proposed by my planning authority which would have meant that, when the heat pump fails in say 20 years time, I would have been obliged to replace it with exactly the same model of heat pump, or seek a new planning approval! 

 

So with an industry that has matured a bit, and the knowledge accumulated over the the two years of pain (the knowledge, not the pain, mostly due to the members of this forum and the Renewable Heating Hub), I can now start to move forward!  Strictly I should wait 6 weeks, because that's the time within which the decision of a planning inspector can (like any planning approval) be challenged by judicial review. 

[JamesPa]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

As I was saying you used £7.5k of tax payers money, a hybrid could be way cheaper. Get all the benefits of lower running costs and emissions when it's mild from ASHP and cheaper costs from gas when cold. Then make the Bus grant £3k, instead of £7500.

Technically I agree.  However there would be a difficulty enforcing the use of the ashp on this case and there would be a good few who, for whatever reason, just switch it off and use the gas, resulting in a total waste of public money.

 

I'm not sure there is a golden bullet here.  There rarely is I suspect with deliberate market distortions, which are nevertheless necessary to kick start change.

[Nick Thomas]

11 hours ago, allthatpebbledash said:

we want to keep the gas line to the property for the kitchen hob. Would the BUS grant still be available to us?

 

This is fine - there's no requirement to remove the gas completely. It's the boiler upgrade scheme, not the cooker upgrade scheme

 

I second the induction hob recommendation though - my installer was able to remove the gas meter on request, and that saves the gas standing charge, which comes to ~£10/month. If that's not music to a yorkshireman's ears, I don't know what could be.

 

[sharpener]

4 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Better still the 'conditions' the planning inspector has imposed are more favourable (in my view) even than I had requested, and totally trash the conditions proposed by my planning authority

 

Well done, bet you are over the moon over this. Hopefully it will also serve as a precedent which the muppets in yr LA will have to follow in future.

[Dave Jones]

13 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Correct sadly, its been a two year nightmare, thanks to the industry and more particularly a mad planning authority which, if you need/seek planning permission, requires a heat pump to be 50 times (17dB) quieter than national standards.  If I knew two years ago what I know now, I would have gone about this a different way!

 

However today there is light on the horizon in the form of the outcome from my planning appeal, which was to uphold the appeal and thus grant permission.  Better still the 'conditions' the planning inspector has imposed are more favourable (in my view) even than I had requested, and totally trash the conditions proposed by my planning authority which would have meant that, when the heat pump fails in say 20 years time, I would have been obliged to replace it with exactly the same model of heat pump, or seek a new planning approval! 

 

So with an industry that has matured a bit, and the knowledge accumulated over the the two years of pain (the knowledge, not the pain, mostly due to the members of this forum and the Renewable Heating Hub), I can now start to move forward!  Strictly I should wait 6 weeks, because that's the time within which the decision of a planning inspector can (like any planning approval) be challenged by judicial review. 

 

its amazing these planning officer morons are able to keep their jobs and pension. In a sane world they would be stripped of both.

[JamesPa]

9 hours ago, sharpener said:

 

Well done, bet you are over the moon over this. Hopefully it will also serve as a precedent which the muppets in yr LA will have to follow in future.

I'm pretty chuffed yes, and somewhat relieved after two years of hard slog.  As to what my LPA will do more generally - that's anyone's guess, but I think they would struggle to continue down their present path.    

[JamesPa]

1 minute ago, Dave Jones said:

its amazing these planning officer morons are able to keep their jobs and pension. In a sane world they would be stripped of both.

The elected Councillor in charge of planning appears to support them.  She told me, when I spoke with her, that she 'wouldn't want her gardening disturbed by my noisy ASHP'.  She is Green party BTW, just saying.