Topographic survey question

[Lincolnshire Ian]

Hi

We are demolishing a prefab bungalow to build a new house on the plot. The plot is roughly flat, but sits below the height of the road, we have been asked to get a topographic survey to make sure that all the levels are OK. 

The bungalow is still in situ but I was wondering whether it is possible to do a topographic survey before demolition, which is likely to be January 2025 so that we can push ahead with our building control plans as soon as we have Planning Approval? 

The existing bungalow and the new house will overlap in footprint by about 8 metres. 

Thanks 

[Dave Jones]

yes of course, its good idea as you will get invert levels for drains etc as well.

[TommoUK]

Yes. Crack on with the topo.  It will give you 'levels' at regular intervals over the whole plot which will be used by the architect to reference the FFL finished floor level, ceiling levels ridge level etc.  Also when you get into the ground you'll use it to reference 'formation' level of foundations etc and as Dave says the invert levels.

[Benpointer]

Is there a standard topographical survey you will get if you commission one or do you have to specify what you want?  

 

Is it just as simple as saying "here's the plot, please survey it" or do we need to request a certain number of readings / frequency of measurement points?  

 

Thanks

 

[Mr Punter]

13 minutes ago, Benpointer said:

Is there a standard topographical survey you will get if you commission one or do you have to specify what you want?  

 

Is it just as simple as saying "here's the plot, please survey it" or do we need to request a certain number of readings / frequency of measurement points?  

 

Thanks

 

 

They tend to be fairly standard but sometimes you may want to include neighbouring buildings for context elevations etc.

[Alan Ambrose]

The topo people normally do something sensible, but add anything you think might impact planning or building. It's annoying to go 'I wish they had measured xxx while they were there', but you will undoubtably forget something, so don't sweat it.

 

(for planning)

 

+ Ridge, eves, position of neighbouring buildings

+ Location, heights of existing building, driveway, access, gates, paths, outbuildings

 

(for building)

 

+ Positions of services, drainage runs, manholes, inspection hatches, invert levels, ditches, culverts, meters, position & height of poles and track of overhead lines

+ Size, position, spread of trees

+ Geo features - ponds, fences, boreholes, wells, hedges, ridges etc

 

[Gus Potter]

The key here is to talk to the surveyor.. tell them what you want to do.. take their advice and offer to pay a bit more and ask them if it is worth paying a bit extra for a bit more service!

 

For a bit of context.. when you get round to tendering.. one experienced operative on site can cost 1.0k plus a week... an extra £300.00 to the topo expense can really save you a lot of bucks.

 

I've been on BH for a bit and totally appreciate how hard it is to nail down build costs. Everyone want to break things down into work packages.. like you are shopping in Asda. Self build does not work this way any longer. The people aspect is key to driving down cost these days.

 

That takes time and effort... like serious effort and it is a massive learning curve to even get a grasp of the basics. BC, planning delays are costing us a fortune, I factor in now a dealing with "twat time" in terms of planning and BC interaction. TF companies etc are having to watch their costs.. and are delivering less on the design input.. eventually they will start to realise that service is the key. I see this as an SE.

 

I totally get the excitement.. wife and I were away for my 60th this weekend.. passed by a distressed plot and she said.. let's buy that.. I'm like.. ok but let's make sure we don't loose our shirt!. Now what happens is I do an absolute pile of research and dilligence that I do as a day job anyway. But folk on BH often don't want to pay for that or expend the time learning about this.. and then find themselves in trouble.

 

Years ago when I first started unless you were a complete idiot it was hard to lose money on self builds / flats / renovations / developments as property prices were increasing rapidly. There is much less room for error now and if you want to make a go of it you need to put in more work. It's shite but the rewards are worth the effort.

 

Getting prices from kit companies, ground workers, sparks etc is no longer good enough as they are getting pelted by market forces.. they are putting too many caveats on what they are doing and it does not work as well now for the novice self builder.

 

I'm still thinking about how I can explain in a better way of executing the mechanics of this in the current market. Post for another time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Benpointer]

I've fired off quote requests from three local topo surveyors specifying as much as I can, using the suggestions above, but also asking them for guidance given wehat we want to do.  

 

In case it's any use to anyone else, I'll report back what responses I get.

[Benpointer]

First quote back £525+VAT.  Seems pretty good to me.  

 

I requested this:

 

"As discussed, we are seeking a quote for a topographic survey.  We are in the process of buying this 0.85acre building plot which currently has full PP for a 3-bed house.   
 [Link to plot]
We will be submitting fresh plans for a different design and we will need a topographic survey to cover the following:
 * Levels across the site, particularly the eastern half of the plot where the house will go
* External dimensions and location of the two existing buildings, access driveway, gates, paths, fences.
* The ridge and eaves height, and position of neighbouring house on the south of the property
* The depth and fall of the ditch along the north west boundary.
* If possible, the location and size of the oak tree in the neighbouring plot to the north-east of our plot. [Surveyor confirmed that would be included.]
* Anything else you think we might sensibly need from a topographic survey of the plot, I rely on your advice."

 

Can we ask him to invoice zero-rated as it's for a new self-build and there's already PP?  It's only £105 but...
 

Edited September 25 by Benpointer

[Conor]

30 minutes ago, Benpointer said:

First quote back £525+VAT.  Seems pretty good to me.  

 

I requested this:

 

"As discussed, we are seeking a quote for a topographic survey.  We are in the process of buying this 0.85acre building plot which currently has full PP for a 3-bed house.   
 [Link to plot]
We will be submitting fresh plans for a different design and we will need a topographic survey to cover the following:
 * Levels across the site, particularly the eastern half of the plot where the house will go
* External dimensions and location of the two existing buildings, access driveway, gates, paths, fences.
* The ridge and eaves height, and position of neighbouring house on the south of the property
* The depth and fall of the ditch along the north west boundary.
* If possible, the location and size of the oak tree in the neighbouring plot to the north-east of our plot. [Surveyor confirmed that would be included.]
* Anything else you think we might sensibly need from a topographic survey of the plot, I rely on your advice."

 

Can we ask him to invoice zero-rated as it's for a new self-build and there's already PP?  It's only £105 but...
 

It's a professional service, VAT has to be charged.

[Benpointer]

33 minutes ago, Conor said:

It's a professional service, VAT has to be charged.

Ah ok, I did wonder.  Cheers

[Gus Potter]

41 minutes ago, Benpointer said:

First quote back £525+VAT.  Seems pretty good to me.  

 

I requested this:

 

"As discussed, we are seeking a quote for a topographic survey.  We are in the process of buying this 0.85acre building plot which currently has full PP for a 3-bed house.   
 [Link to plot]
We will be submitting fresh plans for a different design and we will need a topographic survey to cover the following:
 * Levels across the site, particularly the eastern half of the plot where the house will go
* External dimensions and location of the two existing buildings, access driveway, gates, paths, fences.
* The ridge and eaves height, and position of neighbouring house on the south of the property
* The depth and fall of the ditch along the north west boundary.
* If possible, the location and size of the oak tree in the neighbouring plot to the north-east of our plot. [Surveyor confirmed that would be included.]
* Anything else you think we might sensibly need from a topographic survey of the plot, I rely on your advice."

 

Can we ask him to invoice zero-rated as it's for a new self-build and there's already PP?  It's only £105 but...

Well done Ben that brief looks pretty good.

 

The cost is middle of the road. Yes you'll need to pay the vat but hey ho.

 

Make sure you meet them on site. Come armed with tea/ coffe and buns and a list of anything else. If near a road get some level of manholes etc, water toby cover levels and so on. Seriously and extra hour or two on site at this stage can save thousands later. From my end once we get into the detailed design we often need levels for obscure things.. it causes delay an uncertainty. Uncertainty =  added cost and as designers we need to be conservative when there is a lack of quality information.

 

Most folk want to help and will spend extra time if the Client engages. You can also get the gossip! and that can be invaulable later on. The gossip  is things like what other sites have you seen nearby when work gets underway.. the ground.. who is the water board guy.. is he / she a wanker or pragmatic?

 

As an SE I often refer to annecdotal evidence to back up some of my design decisions! If you feel they have engaged offer to pay a bit extra! Usually folks will say thanks but don't need more money! or just say and extra hundred in cash will cover it!

 

To put this into context.. if you can save one day for a chippie or ground worker on site at £250.00 per day you get your money back! At this stage of the design you want to aim for the best quality of information you can get. I see this all the time on BH where folk skimp at the beginning and pay dearly later on. I'm not pelting folk self building as have done it myself when I was young. It is really hard to get the basic design info cf going to TF companies and  so on for a guide price adding up the sums and hoping for the best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Benpointer]

9 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

Well done Ben that brief looks pretty good.

 

The cost is middle of the road. Yes you'll need to pay the vat but hey ho.

 

Make sure you meet them on site. Come armed with tea/ coffe and buns and a list of anything else. If near a road get some level of manholes etc, water toby cover levels and so on. Seriously and extra hour or two on site at this stage can save thousands later. From my end once we get into the detailed design we often need levels for obscure things.. it causes delay an uncertainty. Uncertainty =  added cost and as designers we need to be conservative when there is a lack of quality information.

 

Most folk want to help and will spend extra time if the Client engages. You can also get the gossip! and that can be invaulable later on. The gossip  is things like what other sites have you seen nearby when work gets underway.. the ground.. who is the water board guy.. is he / she a wanker or pragmatic?

 

As an SE I often refer to annecdotal evidence to back up some of my design decisions! If you feel they have engaged offer to pay a bit extra! Usually folks will say thanks but don't need more money! or just say and extra hundred in cash will cover it!

 

To put this into context.. if you can save one day for a chippie or ground worker on site at £250.00 per day you get your money back! At this stage of the design you want to aim for the best quality of information you can get. I see this all the time on BH where folk skimp at the beginning and pay dearly later on. I'm not pelting folk self building as have done it myself when I was young. It is really hard to get the basic design info cf going to TF companies and  so on for a guide price adding up the sums and hoping for the best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks - great steer.

 

I can take little credit for the brief - input from BH posters on this thread.  Very helpful thanks all.

[DevilDamo]

55 minutes ago, Conor said:

It's a professional service, VAT has to be charged.

That is not the reason.

[Lincolnshire Ian]

Thank you everyone for your input, this is invaluable. @Benpointerthank you for sharing your quote.