Brick bond at window reveals for non metric sized openings?

[ruggers]

I'm not a brickie so need some advice on the following.

I've been looking to order some concrete or cast stone window sills for a self build with face brick exterior and come up against an issue due to it requiring exact sizes, +205mm if your selecting stooled sills. Theres a 3 week lead time plus delivery charge so I need to pre order them just before the build starts.

 

All of the external walls are designed to metric sizes for full & half bricks using 215x102.5x65 bricks.

 

I'd like to know whats the minimum sized brick cut you can have at the reveals if it doesn't match brick bond, or how else you go about it?

For example, other windows are all metric distances apart from each other or from the corners. I have some openings 1800mm wide which are likely to be 1810mm when it comes to building to include the perps. Some of these can be tweaked a little to suit the bricks, but I have one 1st floor window that needs to be centred above an entrance below, and the size of the opening at 1200mm wide doesn't work for full/half brick cuts unless I start to reduce the window size by 100mm in width. 

 

It would be much nicer to get to this point, then measure and decide on site but as mentioned, these need to be ordered together or its expensive delivery.

I was looking at stooled sills, but considering slip sills if it makes it easier so that I can measure up and install after the openings are built.

 

I then have the option to have them between the reveals only, or order them a bit longer and manually cut out the horns to let them go past the reveals 50mm each side.

 

 

[bassanclan]

What size brick are you actually using?

[Mike]

2 hours ago, ruggers said:

I'd like to know whats the minimum sized brick cut you can have at the reveals if it doesn't match brick bond, or how else you go about it?

You always want alternating (vertically) full & half brick at the reveals.

 

Ideally set out the windows so that you have no cuts between building corners and the windows, and none from window to window, then use cut bricks above and below the centre of the windows. It's better (less obvious) if you use two ¾ length bricks (or similar), rather than one ½ brick, assuming you're laying them stretcher bond. And keep all the cuts vertically above one another.

 

So you can go ahead and order the sill lengths you need. BTW, if you're building the brick fist and adding the windows later, add 10 to 15mm to the window width to give some tolerance, when calculating your sill lengths.

 

Edited August 28 by Mike

[Mike]

2 hours ago, ruggers said:

I then have the option to have them between the reveals only, or order them a bit longer and manually cut out the horns to let them go past the reveals 50mm each side.

You mean by having a sill that projects 50mm either side of the window width? Traditionally these were added for additional strength during transportation and should always be cut off, though that doesn't always happen.

[nod]

I had this same issue on our previous build I spoke to the cast stone supplier He simply said send us your drawing and we will work round it Most of the openings Did vary But that wasn’t an issue 

[Dave Jones]

you may be overthinking this. if they are 2 part cills you can just cut them to suit.

[ruggers]

20 hours ago, bassanclan said:

What size brick are you actually using?

I put this in the OP, 215 long x 102.5 wide x 65mm high.

[ruggers]

 

19 hours ago, Mike said:

You always want alternating (vertically) full & half brick at the reveals.

This is what I originally done but the sizes were changed on the porch and 1st floor window width which I only thought more about when looking to order sills.

19 hours ago, Mike said:

Ideally set out the windows so that you have no cuts between building corners and the windows, and none from window to window, then use cut bricks above and below the centre of the windows. It's better (less obvious) if you use two ¾ length bricks (or similar), rather than one ½ brick, assuming you're laying them stretcher bond. And keep all the cuts vertically above one another.

Good tips. I was unsure how opening sizes are covered that don't work out well to brick bond spacing. I don't image everyones windows and door opening are designed to whole brick sizes unless this is a rule architects do work to? Block work and render is much less important.

19 hours ago, Mike said:

 

So you can go ahead and order the sill lengths you need. BTW, if you're building the brick fist and adding the windows later, add 10 to 15mm to the window width to give some tolerance, when calculating your sill lengths.

 

I spoke to the supplier today who said if ordered in two sections which large ones come in anyways, they can just be cut down as the bars are set back from the ends however much i ask for when they cast them.

19 hours ago, Mike said:

You mean by having a sill that projects 50mm either side of the window width? Traditionally these were added for additional strength during transportation and should always be cut off, though that doesn't always happen.

Yeah so with slip sills, you have two choices, you can either install them to the width of the window brick opening only, or you can order them longer, say 50mm each side, and do an L shaped cut out (horn). I wasn't sure if the latter is beneficial to direct rain water run off, without leaving dirty streak marks down the face of the wall each side of the sill like you sometimes see.

Slip sills have the benefit of being fit once the brickwork is completed, where as stooled sills need the correct sizes and built in as you go along and are already wider than the opening for run off.
I'm not sure if slip sills are ever used with face bricks but they do seem less hassle.

[ruggers]

I've read your comments, looked at the plans today with fresh eyes and found a way to simplify it or correct it if it can be classed as wrong. 

See attached sketch to get the idea. (Red pen is correction which works better)  As mentioned, I designed the outside walls corner to corner to match brick sizes by full/half bricks and kept all of the openings between reveals to the same spacing. The person who done the regs plans changed some things that weren't required & said it's not worth changing back.

 

The porch width should be 2925mm not 2900, this would allow the centred 1st floor window above it, to then sit symmetrical with the correct brick bond to each side of the window if the window width is reduced from 1200mm to 1125. It leaves 900mm for full and half cuts, rather than 850mm which would end up messy.

 

@Dave Jones Yes I sometimes overthink things, but I believe this to be something important that should have been correct on the plans.

[Canski]

48 minutes ago, ruggers said:

I've read your comments, looked at the plans today with fresh eyes and found a way to simplify it or correct it if it can be classed as wrong. 

See attached sketch to get the idea. (Red pen is correction which works better)  As mentioned, I designed the outside walls corner to corner to match brick sizes by full/half bricks and kept all of the openings between reveals to the same spacing. The person who done the regs plans changed some things that weren't required & said it's not worth changing back.

 

The porch width should be 2925mm not 2900, this would allow the centred 1st floor window above it, to then sit symmetrical with the correct brick bond to each side of the window if the window width is reduced from 1200mm to 1125. It leaves 900mm for full and half cuts, rather than 850mm which would end up messy.

 

@Dave Jones Yes I sometimes overthink things, but I believe this to be something important that should have been correct on the plans.

It’s only a few mm but it does make a difference ( said my ex wife) 2915 overall would be better. 552 each side of the door and an 1810 structural opening. Above 890 brick pillar and 1135 opening. Also the overall measurement of 6750 would be better at 6740. Trust me I’m a bricky. 😜

[Canski]

22 hours ago, ruggers said:

I'd like to know whats the minimum sized brick cut you can have at the reveals if it doesn't match brick bond, or how else you go about it?

For example, other windows are all metric distances apart from each other or from the corners. I have some openings 1800mm wide which are likely to be 1810mm when it comes to building to include the perps. Some of these can be tweaked a little to suit the bricks, but I have one 1st floor window that needs to be centred above an entrance below, and the size of the opening at 1200mm wide doesn't work for full/half brick cuts unless I start to reduce the window size by 100mm in width. 

If it’s less than a half then use header 3/4 it doesn’t look good though and should be avoided if possible. The donkey that designed your openings at 1200 mm is in the dark ages and has problems adapting. You could go for either 1135 opening or 1248 but the latter gives you a half which will prevent you getting the window central over your doors. If you get your brick dims correct then you would have no problem using the stooled cills at 205 mm longer than the opening width. 

[ruggers]

@Canski thanks for the advice.

There was a few things changed  which i didnt like and when questioned it caused an argument, the porch sside was 1800 but they changed it to 1900, part of house was 12,600 but changed to 12,700 with no explanation.

 

Just to clarify, what size is classed as half a brick is it 107 or 102?

 

The header you mentioned is the brick end at 102.5?

 

What width should a doorway to outside be for wheelchair access to match 838 internal doors. Frames are usually 70mm each side.

[ruggers]

2 hours ago, Canski said:

It’s only a few mm but it does make a difference ( said my ex wife) 2915 overall would be better. 552 each side of the door and an 1810 structural opening. Above 890 brick pillar and 1135 opening. Also the overall measurement of 6750 would be better at 6740. Trust me I’m a bricky. 😜

I just noticed this post after I'd replied. The rests all out the ground by 3 courses so I'll check if the 6750 is exactly that, I'm just figuring out how to sort the 2900 to 2025 while i wait for a different builder, lucky i had a sanity check at this stage.

 

For 3 course of block 1.9m long it could easily be took apart and changed. (No trench blocks, or infill)

 

*edit - I think i understand why you've suggested 6740, thinking the right hand side to deduct the end perp for an external corner, but its an internal corner so another bricks there.

Edited August 29 by ruggers

[Canski]

16 hours ago, ruggers said:

Just to clarify, what size is classed as half a brick is it 107 or 102?

 

The header you mentioned is the brick end at 102.5?

 

What width should a doorway to outside be for wheelchair access to match 838 internal doors. Frames are usually 70mm each side.

Half a brick is 102.5 and with a perp 112.5 mm

910 and 1023mm are door opening sizes. I’m not sure why you would want to match an internal door width. 

 

[Canski]

16 hours ago, ruggers said:

I think i understand why you've suggested 6740, thinking the right hand side to deduct the end perp for an external corner, but its an internal corner so another bricks there.

You are correct. I didn’t realise it was an internal corner. If you still have reservations you could send me a copy of the plans and I will check it all for brick dims. 

[ruggers]

39 minutes ago, Canski said:

Half a brick is 102.5 and with a perp 112.5 mm

910 and 1023mm are door opening sizes. I’m not sure why you would want to match an internal door width. 

 

I'll PM you the plans over then it makes more sense. 

The porch to house UPVC lockable door i wanted to be at least the same width 838mm as the internal doors so it's easy for moving furniture about.

1023 is the dimension I required because once you've deducted 140mm for each side of the frame, plus around 25mm for the door when it's open at 90 degrees, this brings you down to the similar sized opening of 850 ish.