Invalid at first step

[mjc55]

Bit peed off, received an "unable to register application" letter today.

 

There were 3 points raised.

 

1.  "Red line on location plan not part of Outline Application.  The details of the reserved matters application must be in line with the outline approval"

 

If you look at this thread here regarding our site you will be able to read more.  But in essence the issue was that when our land was split off from the land to the North in the early 2000's the LR title plan was marked incorrectly.  We have subsequently resolved this issue with Salisbury Diocese and the land boundaries have been corrected and submitted to the LR.  As seen below on the right the boundary is as it is correctly, the left shows the location plan as per the OPP accepted in 2022.

 

I have tried phoning the planning department but haven't got through yet.

 

My view is that there is no substantial change to the plot and that it shouldn't materially effect the application!

 

 

2.  Ecological surveys and reports etc. etc.

 

They are saying they need an ecological survey.  Don't think I can argue with this, and don't particularly want to.  I just wish their requirements as regards what is submitted were a bit more obvious.  I have just spoken to a good friend of mine who is an ecologist and he has talked me through what is required.  The only really urgent one is a Bat activity survey.  I will try and get this organised asap.

 

3.  Sustainability checklist and Statement.

 

As above no real argument other than it being more obvious with regard to providing with the planning app.  We did send a Biodiversity checklist with the application that seemed to suggest that nothing else is required.

 

I have had a very brief look through the sustainability checklist and on first pass there doesn't look like any gotcha's on there but will look at that in more detail when I calm down a little.

 

Any thoughts are welcome.

 

p.s.  I would add that I do think that the guidance and the hoops you have to go through should be more measured when it comes to self-build.  Not that I think that we shouldn't have to be ecological etc. in our thought process and practice, just that what is relevant to large scale development is not necessarily relevant to single plots.

Edited July 9 by mjc55

[Alan Ambrose]

Yes, agree, my sympathies, usual LPA BS in my view.

 

Insufficient detail on what constitutes a valid application - check.

Inability to locate information on drawings - check.

Obvious that the rules don't apply equally to their regular applicants - check.

Silly overreach on requirements that may never be needed if the application is turned down - check.

Each LPA's requirements are different - check.

Universal list irrespective of whether the applicant is applying for one dwelling, 10 or 100 - check.

'Validation' done by least qualified and most junior member of staff with no common sense - check.

 

At least your validation response was probably signed by an actual human, the inspectorate takes, say 15 weeks, can't see stuff on the drawings and then sign themselves Validation Officer A8 or some such nonsense.

 

These should probably all be added to the 'reform the planning system' list.

[Kelvin]

Mine was invalidated because the topographical survey didn’t have a scale on it. Returned with a scale the same day and it took another 3 weeks to validate the planning application. 

[G and J]

We (meaning I) forgot to pay.  How dumb do I get? (Don’t answer that!). Sorted in no time.  

[Alan Ambrose]

The heritage officer was outraged that we didn't submit a heritage report.

 

This is mentioned anywhere on the LPA's portal - no.

Report needed for the same plot for the previous successful application - no.

Also the LPA asked for a contamination report - also not listed on the LPA's portal despite the fact they have a detailed 'validation checklist'.

Also not needed for the previous application.

 

Making it up as they go along...

[ETC]

Red lines need to be the same from OPA to FPS.

 

Alternatively just go straight to a full plans submission with the new boundary.

[joe90]

LPA,s.  Under funded. Under staffed, under educated in common sense. All the above points should be copied to your local Labour councillor to pass on to Angela Rayner.

Edited July 9 by joe90

[DevilDamo]

I’m going to have to go against the grain here and agree with the LPA. There are validation items and requirements for a reason.

[mjc55]

I don't disagree with point 2 & 3, I must admit to being a bit peed off on initial receipt of their email.  However I would say that having to navigate through the reams of requirements is a little onerous.  Especially as I do think there is a massive difference between a self-build plot and a major house development - something that doesn't seem to be reflected in their planning policy.  And I did spend the last 10 years of my working life submitting planning applications, so I am not unfamiliar with the process (and the difficulty that some planning officers seem to delight in)!

 

On point 1 though, although, again I should have put some more info with the application, LR site plans are not that accurate.  It is obvious from the location plan that it is the same site, maybe a bit of thinking on their part could have led to a response along the lines of "can you please clarify position of red line".

 

I don't, at this stage, want to go for a full planning application, rather than approval of reserved matters as that would surely give them more scope for being difficult!  (This was one of 4 sites identified for development in village plan)

 

Hey ho, onwards and upwards - might not be finished for Grandsons 6th birthday after all!

[joe90]

12 minutes ago, mjc55 said:

maybe a bit of thinking on their part

Now your just being silly 🙄

13 minutes ago, mjc55 said:

I did spend the last 10 years of my working life submitting planning applications, so I am not unfamiliar with the process (and the difficulty that some planning officers seem to delight in)!

So you are well qualified, how are the rest of us supposed to manage?

 

when living in Shropshire I was going to submit my own plans to extend a cottage and a neighbour who was in the trade offered to do it for me, when I viewed his drawings I spotted two mistakes and when I told him he asked me where the third one was!!,! He explained the local planners loved to make you change things so the “art” was to create obvious errors where the outcome was what you wanted in the first place. He was right and I got what I wanted 🙄

[DevilDamo]

1 hour ago, mjc55 said:

I do think there is a massive difference between a self-build plot and a major house development

Apart from the major is more favoured as the Council are able to extract a lot of money from it in terms of the application fee, CIL and all other legal contributions. Not dis-similar as to why a Householder application takes the same time to be determined as a Full application. Usually half the fee and half the policies.

[ETC]

1 hour ago, mjc55 said:

I don't disagree with point 2 & 3, I must admit to being a bit peed off on initial receipt of their email.  However I would say that having to navigate through the reams of requirements is a little onerous.  Just comply with the conditions on the Outline Approval and you won’t go wrong. Especially as I do think there is a massive difference between a self-build plot and a major house development - something that doesn't seem to be reflected in their planning policy. Not really - both applications will need to comply with whatever conditions are identified on the Outline Approval - there be a few more on a housing development but the concept is the same. And I did spend the last 10 years of my working life submitting planning applications, so I am not unfamiliar with the process (and the difficulty that some planning officers seem to delight in)! In which case I’m  surprise you got the red line wrong - schoolboy error I’m afraid.

 

On point 1 though, although, again I should have put some more info with the application, LR site plans are not that accurate.  It is obvious from the location plan that it is the same site, maybe a bit of thinking on their part could have led to a response along the lines of "can you please clarify position of red line".Thinking doesn’t enter into it. The Outline Approval is a legal document and you must use the same red line. If you vary the line the application will not be valid.

 

I don't, at this stage, want to go for a full planning application, rather than approval of reserved matters as that would surely give them more scope for being difficult!  (This was one of 4 sites identified for development in village plan). Planners aren’t difficult - they have policies and standards to comply with and if they vary from the policy they can be challenged in court.

 

Hey ho, onwards and upwards - might not be finished for Grandsons 6th birthday after all!

 

[mjc55]

4 hours ago, joe90 said:

Now your just being silly 🙄

So you are well qualified, how are the rest of us supposed to manage?

 

when living in Shropshire I was going to submit my own plans to extend a cottage and a neighbour who was in the trade offered to do it for me, when I viewed his drawings I spotted two mistakes and when I told him he asked me where the third one was!!,! He explained the local planners loved to make you change things so the “art” was to create obvious errors where the outcome was what you wanted in the first place. He was right and I got what I wanted 🙄

Don't know about "well qualified", all my experience was with extensions, fairly small scale stuff.  Never worked on a new build.  I did think, however my experience would stand me in good stead, not so sure now.

[mjc55]

2 hours ago, ETC said:

I don't disagree with point 2 & 3, I must admit to being a bit peed off on initial receipt of their email.  However I would say that having to navigate through the reams of requirements is a little onerous.  Just comply with the conditions on the Outline Approval and you won’t go wrong. Especially as I do think there is a massive difference between a self-build plot and a major house development - something that doesn't seem to be reflected in their planning policy. Not really - both applications will need to comply with whatever conditions are identified on the Outline Approval - there be a few more on a housing development but the concept is the same. And I did spend the last 10 years of my working life submitting planning applications, so I am not unfamiliar with the process (and the difficulty that some planning officers seem to delight in)! In which case I’m  surprise you got the red line wrong - schoolboy error I’m afraid.

 

On point 1 though, although, again I should have put some more info with the application, LR site plans are not that accurate.  It is obvious from the location plan that it is the same site, maybe a bit of thinking on their part could have led to a response along the lines of "can you please clarify position of red line".Thinking doesn’t enter into it. The Outline Approval is a legal document and you must use the same red line. If you vary the line the application will not be valid.

 

I don't, at this stage, want to go for a full planning application, rather than approval of reserved matters as that would surely give them more scope for being difficult!  (This was one of 4 sites identified for development in village plan). Planners aren’t difficult - they have policies and standards to comply with and if they vary from the policy they can be challenged in court.

 

Hey ho, onwards and upwards - might not be finished for Grandsons 6th birthday after all!

I didn't actually get it wrong although obviously I cant necessarily disagree that it was a schoolboy error.

 

The problem is/was that the position of the proposed development overlaps the (incorrect) red line.  So although within our actual boundaries, not within the incorrect boundaries.  This is what I have been trying to sort out.

 

The fact is I am completely in the dark about how they would treat a completely new application, and having spent a lot of money purchasing the land I can't contemplate them turning us down.  presumably that could be a possibility of a new application as opposed to a "simple" reserved matters application.

 

I do disagree with your "Planners aren't difficult" statement though.  I have enough experience of the difference between various individual planners to know that they are idiosyncratic in their approach to applications, there were some planning officers in the LA I worked with who I knew would give me difficulties.

[garrymartin]

I was going to suggest that if no part of the development was going to be in the area that had been added in the second red line plan, you could use the original red line plan, and use a blue line to show the additional land that is within your ownership now.

 

However, you noted above that the proposed development overlaps the (incorrect) red line. I honestly can't see any way forward other than a new application. It isn't just about the planners, it's a material change that would need to provide for other people and other departments/organisations to comment on your application.

[Jilly]

Have you read ‘How a planner got planning’ on here? It’s very good. 
 

Many people count the planning as the most difficult bit of self building. 
 

It can feel like a game of chess with constantly changing rules.

[garrymartin]

2 hours ago, Jilly said:

Have you read ‘How a planner got planning’ on here? It’s very good.

As the forum search isn't the best, here's the link