Patio issue

[Teresa1]

Having issues with patio.  Have had patio put down, lifted and redone x2.  Last builder left last step too high and I had to have a third chap in to add another step.  Initially the wall cracked with cracking to grout on upper patio and steps wall.  Now after second fitting we have some cracking to grout on wall at top of steps and top patio.  They have covered the drainage holes on the bottom walls.  There is a brick wall under the bottom walls with drainage holes beneath slabs. We really don’t know what to do.  We cannot keep paying out.  Any ideas.  My husband thinks it’s possibly a drainage issue.  The water does not have anywhere to drain.  I would appreciate any advice.  Thank you

[Russell griffiths]

Nobody has answered so I will chuck something in. 
any retaking structure like you have there will move and settle resulting in grout cracks. 
 

you would have needed it to be built to a huge over specification to say I want no movement. 
im afraid I think the design is flawed, and fixing such a ridgid thing as tiles to the face and tops of a wall and steps, somewhere along the line something will move, resulting in displaced grout, or a loose tile. 
 

I think the design is too rigid looking and needed some movement joints incorporated somewhere. 
 

either gravel strips at the junctions of walls and paving, or movement joints at internal corners. 
 

I think your design will not fair well in the long term. 

[saveasteading]

It will be easy to redrill the drainage holes. That is the biggest and very  urgent issue.

 

Are there drawings or any photos during construction?

[Teresa1]

I have lots of pictures.  But only able to put one at a time on this site.  Appreciate your advice.  Biggest problem is getting someone to drill the holes.  

[Teresa1]

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Teresa1 said:

Biggest problem is getting someone to drill the holes.  

The last builder covered over them so should now reform them. Politelh ask dod they not know how important it is to leave these holes. Then tell them they are about to be discussed nationally so please do this.

 

It won't take long.

[Teresa1]

Builder also made a mess of the grout.  Threw his toys out of pram and off he went.  Upset me in the end.  I think we are going to have to try to get someone to take slabs off to cut holes inline with drainage holes.  There are two drainage holes each side of wall from brickwork.  Is that enough.  In fact the first builder covered up drainage holes too.  I appreciate your advice and thank you for taking the time to reply.  This job has cost double my first house!!  Caused so much stress.  Knowing we are going to have escalating problems is difficult to take. 

[Jilly]

Well I think it looks nice 😊

[Teresa1]

Builder also made a mess of the grout.  Threw his toys out of pram and off he went.  Upset me in the end.  I think we are going to have to try to get someone to take slabs off to cut holes inline with drainage holes.  There are two drainage holes each side of wall from brickwork.  Is that enough.  In fact the first builder covered up drainage holes too.  I appreciate your advice and thank you for taking the time to reply.  This job has cost double my first house!!  Caused so much stress.  Knowing we are going to have escalating problems is difficult to take. 

[Teresa1]

Thank you Jilly.  On the surface it does but if you look too closely you see the flaws.  Especially as a builder.  I have one good builder who has put some things right.  He felt the water was our issue but does not want to get involved with removing the porcelain slabs.  

[Andehh]

If you're going through hell.... Keep going! This forums exists more as a self help group for these bullshit times then anything I think. We've endured some horror periods over our build.

 

For what it's worth, I also opened this thread and went....'oh wow, that looks nice'.

 

Are you to tap the porcelain and see if you can detect hollow spots in the general vicinity of the drainage holes?

 

Or even a thermal camera might detect them? Blow heat over them to detect temp change/discrepancy maybe?

Edited July 7 by Andehh

[Andehh]

Alternatively.... From those photos you can measure them, with the bricks and mortar gaps giving you a pretty good idea of where they are. Drill small holes to see if you can find/break through... Even if it you miss a few, a magic man will guarantee to make those holes invisible (or use grout yourself)...... They've hidden far worse damage on and in our house!

[Teresa1]

Hi, thank you for the tips and kind words.  Porcelain is such a nightmare to crack.  We have had to replace a few already.  I have arranged for someone to come take a look next week.  Builder number 4.  Makes my husband and I sound nightmares!  We are not.

[JamesP]

I am currently laying 100sqm of Porcelain 20mmx900mmx600mm at home, quite a challenge as a self builder., not a professional.

Mostly level, some walling and steps.

If this was my problem I would try core drilling through the lower rectangular tiles at the base of the wall and continue through the brick retaining wall.

If the tiles break, remove them, drill retaining wall, clean hole through new tile and fix.

It looks very smart in the photo.

[Teresa1]

Thank you.  I will show these posts to the builder who is coming.  My last builder had worked out the problem but no confidence to drill.  This is refashioned garden no. 2.  First version was very smart but we had a cracked wall and sinking patio with pooling water on bottom patio.  Seem to get one thing right then another goes wrong.  Added picture of original version.

[Dave Jones]

drain holes may help a tiny amount, but wont stop the movement.

 

The brick wall they are stuck to is going to get soaked, and stay soaked. Then the freeze/thaw will make the grout give out.

 

Really needed that wall being tanked behind with DPC, then backfilled with clean gravel 300mm or so wide and drainage holes at bottom. That way the wall has a chance to dry out.

 

pretty easy to drill some holes though, just buy a 22mm porcelain hole cutter, once through the porcelain stick a 20mm SDS though the brickwork behind. If it goes into mud though its not going to do much.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

drain holes may help a tiny amount,

They stop the wall falling over from the weight of water.

[Teresa1]

Thank you.  I will show these posts to the builder who is coming.  My last builder had worked out the problem but no confidence to drill.  This is refashioned garden no. 2.  First version was very smart but we had a cracked wall and sinking patio with pooling water on bottom patio.  Seem to get one thing right then another goes wrong.  Added picture of original version.

[Teresa1]

That is fake grass.  Not sure what he put there.  But a lot of work went on.  Obviously earth was removed and more digging out.  We will have to learn to live with movement.  But drainage obviously needs to be sorted if possible.  I feel so lucky to have all your advice.  It is so difficult when you have been ripped off x 2 and still not going to be able to totally sort issues.  But I would like to thank all who are helping. X

[Andehh]

Good luck! We've all had those stinky feelings ourselves, we all get through it on the end.

[Teresa1]

Hi all, update on garden.  Our builder lifted slabs on top patio and base under two slabs lifted is soft and cracking.  He has done layers of base wrong order apparently.  Will have to have it all dug up and relaid correctly.  Now considering what to do. Think going to give up on porcelain on top patio.  Anyone help with ideas.  ? Change to different grey slab type with stones/gravel?  Have all new slabs laid in different material.  Only go up there to clothes line.  I bought three slabs which we thought we were going to replace in the porcelain and they cost nearly £50!  My back garden has more value in tiles than is in my bank account.  Would soooo appreciate any suggestions.  I have put the pause button on doing anything until really sure.  Thank you.😊

[Teresa1]

[Teresa1]

On 06/07/2024 at 15:32, Russell griffiths said:

Nobody has answered so I will chuck something in. 
any retaking structure like you have there will move and settle resulting in grout cracks. 
 

you would have needed it to be built to a huge over specification to say I want no movement. 
im afraid I think the design is flawed, and fixing such a ridgid thing as tiles to the face and tops of a wall and steps, somewhere along the line something will move, resulting in displaced grout, or a loose tile. 
 

I think the design is too rigid looking and needed some movement joints incorporated somewhere. 
 

either gravel strips at the junctions of walls and paving, or movement joints at internal corners. 
 

I think your design will not fair well in the long term. 

 

[Andehh]

Remove all the grout, and leave without any? Sort of shadow gaps? Or put in some flexible silicone sealant?

[Teresa1]

Ok. Will mention.