Hello All - New Build on existing property land - electric installation quote by National Grid Extortion!!

[Mike M]

So we’ve just built a Cotswold Barn 30 metres from our existing property for a holiday let. It’s 10 metres from electric supply pylon running a 16KVA transformer.

National Grid initially wanted £53K to install electricity to the new property. Argued the toss and now it’s £15K. It’s difficult to justify as they say we need a 50KVA transformer to run both properties!

we hadn’t budgeted for anything like £15K.

Any help understanding what our options are would be greatly appreciated. I’m not at all electrically minded. Thanks 

 

[Bonner]

Why do you need a separate supply, can’t you run it off the existing property? You might need to keep the power demand low, what heating and hot water systems have you planned?

[Mike M]

Hi Bonner. Apparently the 16KVA isn’t big enough to run both properties? It’s two 4 bedroom spaces. The barn is electric throughout including underfloor in all rooms so no radiators.

[garrymartin]

When did you get the figures from National Grid, and were they desk-based estimates or actual costed quotations?

 

The rules changed from 1st April 2023 and you should no longer be paying for reinforcement assets (cable and transformer upgrades) and should only be picking up costs for extension assets (the actual connection).

 

 

OFGEM Access and Forward-Looking Charges Significant Code Review

https://connections.nationalgrid.co.uk/significant-code-review/

 

[ProDave]

Up here, a 50KVA transformer feeds 5 properties, so start by arguing them fitting a 50KVA transformer is overkill and they are in effect asking you to fund the upgrade for another 3 houses to connect to it.

[saveasteading]

  On 04/06/2024 at 17:34, ProDave said:

start by arguing them fitting a 50KVA transformer is overkill

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there is a formal process for this, ie that you don't contribute to their future capacity.  then you pay the cost of the transformer you need, and not the rest.

[Bonner]

  On 04/06/2024 at 16:02, Mike M said:

Apparently the 16KVA isn’t big enough to run both properties?

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Probably not if all electric heating and HW

[saveasteading]

  On 04/06/2024 at 18:40, Bonner said:

all electric heating and HW

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Remember that if you are well insulated you don't need a lot of energy to heat the space. even less if you have ashp.

[Mike M]

  On 04/06/2024 at 17:24, garrymartin said:

When did you get the figures from National Grid, and were they desk-based estimates or actual costed quotations?

 

The rules changed from 1st April 2023 and you should no longer be paying for reinforcement assets (cable and transformer upgrades) and should only be picking up costs for extension assets (the actual connection).

 

 

OFGEM Access and Forward-Looking Charges Significant Code Review

https://connections.nationalgrid.co.uk/significant-code-review/

 

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Hi. Thanks for the reply. They were desk based quotes. No one came out. Why would they include a cost for upgrade if it’s no longer chargeable? It’s very confusing. 

[Mark Greenfield]

  On 04/06/2024 at 15:13, Mike M said:

So we’ve just built a Cotswold Barn 30 metres from our existing property for a holiday let. It’s 10 metres from electric supply pylon running a 16KVA transformer.

National Grid initially wanted £53K to install electricity to the new property. Argued the toss and now it’s £15K. It’s difficult to justify as they say we need a 50KVA transformer to run both properties!

we hadn’t budgeted for anything like £15K.

Any help understanding what our options are would be greatly appreciated. I’m not at all electrically minded. Thanks 

 

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The problem is you don't really have anywhere to go with this I don't think - there's no competition for the Grid, so they can name their price. £15k seems better than I would have expected for a 50kva transformer to be honest, although I appreciate it's not in the budget. It'll cost you more than double that to consider a proper off-grid solution.

[Mike M]

  On 05/06/2024 at 06:11, Mark Greenfield said:

The problem is you don't really have anywhere to go with this I don't think - there's no competition for the Grid, so they can name their price. £15k seems better than I would have expected for a 50kva transformer to be honest, although I appreciate it's not in the budget. It'll cost you more than double that to consider a proper off-grid solution.

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Thanks Mark. I’m getting mixed messages from wherever I look to be honest. I don’t think we need a 50KVA but that’s what they (Grid) are saying.

[garrymartin]

  On 05/06/2024 at 06:06, Mike M said:

Hi. Thanks for the reply. They were desk based quotes. No one came out. Why would they include a cost for upgrade if it’s no longer chargeable? It’s very confusing. 

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To be frank, I have no idea. I suspect it is to put people off from commissioning the work. The following is a direct quote from an email where I queried this on my desk-based estimate that was more than £30K for a connection where the existing transformer is 1 metre from the site boundary.

 

"As you may have read a budget estimate is an indication of the likely costs. A Budget estimate is not a formal offer for connection and cannot be accepted. These are desk top exercises, we do not carry out any detailed design work and the assessment is carried out as a desktop exercise that do not take account of any site specific considerations. The new costing rules are not factored into the budget estimate, and would depend on certain factors which would be accessed when providing a formal offer."

 

[Mike M]

  On 05/06/2024 at 07:37, garrymartin said:

 

To be frank, I have no idea. I suspect it is to put people off from commissioning the work. The following is a direct quote from an email where I queried this on my desk-based estimate that was more than £30K for a connection where the existing transformer is 1 metre from the site boundary.

 

"As you may have read a budget estimate is an indication of the likely costs. A Budget estimate is not a formal offer for connection and cannot be accepted. These are desk top exercises, we do not carry out any detailed design work and the assessment is carried out as a desktop exercise that do not take account of any site specific considerations. The new costing rules are not factored into the budget estimate, and would depend on certain factors which would be accessed when providing a formal offer."

 

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Thanks Garry. I need to do some more digging I think. That’s really helpful. 

[ProDave]

  On 05/06/2024 at 07:48, Mike M said:

Thanks Garry. I need to do some more digging I think. That’s really helpful. 

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So it means you need to request a "formal offer" only then can you discuss it and negotiate it.

 

The formal offer should state which items are contestable (could be done by others) and which are not.  I got my quote down a lot by doing all the contestable work myself.

 

On the subject of capacity, I was offered a 12KVA supply as the most that was available, any more would require a transformer upgrade.  That is ample for our needs.

[Mark Greenfield]

  On 05/06/2024 at 06:29, Mike M said:

Thanks Mark. I’m getting mixed messages from wherever I look to be honest. I don’t think we need a 50KVA but that’s what they (Grid) are saying.

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Seems a lot of kva to be fair; is there a mid-point?

[ProDave]

A 100A single phase supply is 21KVA.  You will not get any higher than that for a single phase domestic supply.  My 12KVA supply would allow me 52A.

 

[Alan Ambrose]

I think this high quote and then negotiate is fairly typical - it allows them to make maximum cash from people in a rush etc.

[garrymartin]

  On 05/06/2024 at 08:17, Mark Greenfield said:

Seems a lot of kva to be fair; is there a mid-point?

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They are in bands, so typically single-phase transformers are 16, 25, 50, and 100 kVA; three-phase are 25, 50, 100, 200, and 315 kVA.

 

So if the existing 16kVA is insufficient, the step to 25kVA may not be enough and may not be cost-effective; hence the 50kVA. Or they could be upgrading to a three-phase 50kVA transformer and future-proofing requirements in that location for more heat pumps, electric car charging etc.

[saveasteading]

  On 05/06/2024 at 08:53, garrymartin said:

if the existing 16kVA is insufficient,

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It is worth checking this. I have found some electricians to overestimate the demand, and epecially some to over-allow for the power into an ashp.

 

  On 05/06/2024 at 08:24, ProDave said:

My 12KVA supply would allow me 52A.

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If 12 is enough for @ProDave  maybe it is enough for you.

 

 

[Mike M]

  On 04/06/2024 at 15:13, Mike M said:

So we’ve just built a Cotswold Barn 30 metres from our existing property for a holiday let. It’s 10 metres from electric supply pylon running a 16KVA transformer.

National Grid initially wanted £53K to install electricity to the new property. Argued the toss and now it’s £15K. It’s difficult to justify as they say we need a 50KVA transformer to run both properties!

we hadn’t budgeted for anything like £15K.

Any help understanding what our options are would be greatly appreciated. I’m not at all electrically minded. Thanks 

 

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So wife spoke to National Grid. Explained we didn’t need a 50KVA transformer as the existing one on the pole powers our house we just need another one of similar size to power the barn. National Grid site recommends 17.8KVA.

Lady on phone says “we only do two

sizes a 50KVA and a 25KVA”

wife says well the 25KVA will suffice and be cheaper.

lady on phone “We can’t fit two transformers to the pole it’s too small”

we have a huge pole.

Has anyone heard this before?

They are coming to site on Monday so let’s see what they suggest!

[Bonner]

I got a lot more sense from the field engineer than talking to the planning office! Hopefully they will come up with a pragmatic solution.

[Mike M]

Hi Bonner it’s the same person coming out that originally quoted £53K and dropped it to £13K as she had the wrong information! She seems inflamatory to be honest

[garrymartin]

Just remember @Mike M that as I noted previously, you should only be paying for extension assets and not reinforcement assets. A new transformer would be a reinforcement asset so it shouldn't matter to you that they want to replace the existing one with a 50KVA one as that will be at their cost. You should only pay for the extension asset which is the cabling from the transformer to your property. When they come to site, if they mention costs, ask them whether those costs relate to extension assets or reinforcement assets

 

[Kelvin]

  On 20/06/2024 at 08:37, Bonner said:

I got a lot more sense from the field engineer than talking to the planning office! Hopefully they will come up with a pragmatic solution.

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Pretty much the same here. I’m not sure how well trained or experienced the desk based planners are. The impression I got was not very or it was variable depending on who you dealt with. Ultimately you need a firm designed quote and then work from there. I did find SSEN very helpful though. 

[Trw144]

Rather than a new thread I thought I may as well tac onto this one....

 

I have just had a budget cost for a new electrical connection. It's two new build houses, and then potentially changing the house already connected from single phase to three phase. I originally had it quoted prior to April 2023 (budgeted then was £23k), I held out at the time thinking the changes to how network upgrades were costed would benefit me but have just had a quote for £30k. I've attached the budget quote and breakdown, and also how much of the upgrade I appear to be contributing to (90%!). I must admit I don't fully understand how the whole costings work and if I have any case to argue this is for "re-inforcement assets" as mentioned in the thread.