Interconnected smokes, junction box?

[Spinny]

I have been looking for a smoke and heat alarm solution which will link to a smart home hub to be able to send notifications to my mobile. I cannot yet find one. Building regs in England call for mains powered and interlinked devices - which is a bit daft in today's world of 10 year batteries, universal internet and mobile phones. All the smart home enabled smokes I look at are battery powered only, obviously because that is where the mass market is for retrofitting to existing properties where current building regs don't apply.

 

I find it hard to contemplate installing smokes that don't notify you - seems absolutely vital to me. Nobody else in this world cares if an alarm sounds in your house. Your whole house will have to have smoke and flames coming out of the roof before anyone will call the fire brigade. Your half deaf parents will sleep through a 90db alarm etc.

 

I am very interested please in exactly how anyone has managed to interlink mains powered smokes from the old world manufacturers like Aico into a smart home hub like home assistant (I currently use SmartThings). 🙏

[JohnMo]

11 minutes ago, Spinny said:

find it hard to contemplate installing smokes that don't notify you

So if we breakdown the major reasons for house fires

 

cooking - someone is in the home, so a message on your phone is pretty pointless

electrical malfunctions, most likely will trip the electrics, so no power, no internet, no message

smoking - your in the house fallen asleep so message isn't going to help you.

 

So you are in the house or away. In house you will here the alarm, away from house it's a bit late anyway. Message pretty much pointless.

18 minutes ago, Spinny said:

Your half deaf parents will sleep through a 90db alarm etc

Unlikely to hear a ping on the phone then or you ringing them up?

 

20 minutes ago, Spinny said:

smart home hub like home assistant

I would be keeping them at arms length, essential home stuff, like heating, safety and ventilation should not be involved in so called smart home stuff. All affected by a single point failure, either obsolescence or even the internet in your home falling over.

[dpmiller]

put a radiolink into one of the Aicos to make the whole system accessible, then get a relay box or better still the EI414 alarm interface.

[G and J]

18 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

smart relay

I’ve not really got my head round smart relays.   I bought a Shelly dimmer and started to play with that so I’m starting to understand their use in lighting control.

 

But what function would a smart relay perform if controlled by the alarm wire of smoke/heat alarms?

[Spinny]

JohnMo,

OK I guess we can debate it til the cows come home, but I think the world is different now. There are some things like external smart locks that I would still be rather wary of, but generally IP and smart is where the world is going. Even BT are scrapping the old POTS in favour of IP. Resilient internet isn't hard in a world of fibre internet, mobile internet and satellite internet and many smart home hubs support local control and SOHO routers often support automated failovers between wired and mobile internet. I do agree it is important to think about resilience and failover, but it can be perfectly doable in the electronic world. 

 

''away from house it's a bit late anyway. Message pretty much pointless.''

Depends on your PoV, if I got a fire notification whilst on the world cruise I could not afford, I'd call up local friend or family or neighbour and say - could you possibly take a quick look for me ? Or indeed turn on any internal cam and check the footage. Do you not make a spare key available to anyone ?

 

"essential home stuff, like heating, safety and ventilation should not be involved in so called smart home stuff"

I have been using a Heatmiser app, hub and wireless thermostats to control my heating without any problem. My electric rooflight will be on a smart switch. I hope to put the stop tap on smart control. I like manual control too as a backup of course.

 

Every manufacturer under the sun is using IP connectivity now to reduce maintenance visits etc. IMO it is a new world and it is coming whether we like it or not.

 

I wonder what grok thinks ?

 

I am getting on myself and you can tire of the endless march of tech and eventually think I really can't be arsed with an 8k, 16 speaker AV system, just like my parents liked their cheque book, and the MIL can't work her mobile phone.

 

😁🤪🤷‍♂️

 

 

 

Edited April 18 by Spinny

[Super_Paulie]

21 minutes ago, G and J said:

But what function would a smart relay perform if controlled by the alarm wire of smoke/heat alarms?

 

The only function I would expect from it is a notification to our phones. You can set it so that a notification will be sent based on the relay trigger on a 240v input on the switch side. Other than that it serves no other function and isn't anything safety critical. Id imagine the heat alarm would sound (and thus notify) before the electrics tripped but again it's more of an experiment than safety critical. 

 

Put it this way, if the house is going to burn down it will whether I get a notification or not. But if I do I'd be given maybe a few minutes extra to phone a sibling to investigate/phone the fire brigade.

[Spinny]

Quote

But what function would a smart relay perform if controlled by the alarm wire of smoke/heat alarms?

Notification to the mobile phone or smart watch of anyone you wish to set up - yourself, family, neighbour etc.

 

Automated actions in response to the alarm - flash a red light on the outside of your home, or the TV screen of a deaf person, turn off the electrical circuits serving the room that is on fire, turn on your sprinkler system, automatically unlock all the doors to facilitate escape or entry of the fire brigade, open the electric gate at the end of the drive, turn off the ventilation system so it doesn't feed the fire, turn on your webcam, establish that the TV is smoking and turn off the power to it, phone the police because you can see a fat Italian man smoking a cigar in your living room, play this at full volume on the music system https://youtu.be/CIrvSJwwJUE?feature=shared

 

 

enough already ?

Edited April 18 by Spinny

[G and J]

37 minutes ago, Super_Paulie said:

 

The only function I would expect from it is a notification to our phones. You can set it so that a notification will be sent based on the relay trigger on a 240v input on the switch side. Other than that it serves no other function and isn't anything safety critical. Id imagine the heat alarm would sound (and thus notify) before the electrics tripped but again it's more of an experiment than safety critical. 

 

Put it this way, if the house is going to burn down it will whether I get a notification or not. But if I do I'd be given maybe a few minutes extra to phone a sibling to investigate/phone the fire brigade.

So a 9v dc operated relay (like, with a coil and physical contacts - how very retro!) which switches 240v ac thence to the smart relay that can initiate some form of message or other actions.   Got it.  Thank you.

[trialuser]

I haven't read all of this thread, but here is my tuppence.

I have a dry ouput of my fire panel (so you could use a relay if not using a panel) connected to a zone in my intruder panel and programmed as fire.

I then get a notification if the zone is triggeered in my intruder alarm app (Texecom)

You could also use outputs from the intruder panel to switch other devices on or off, via relays or not, depending on the device.

In a previous house when the kids were young, I has 5mm leds in the ceiling  every meter or so from bedrooms to exit doors which were switched on in the event of a power cut or a fire activation.

They had a 48hr 12v battery backup power supply.

Seems to work ok.

[JohnMo]

1 hour ago, Spinny said:

generally IP and smart is where the world is going

Doesn't mean it's the best thing in some instances. 

1 hour ago, Spinny said:

Heatmiser app, hub and wireless thermostats to control my heating without any problem.

Sorry the system is different, the thermostat talks directly to hub nothing else, the outside control  sits on top of the basic control, as an addition, not a primary function. It still functions with an internet connection or without WiFi in the house, you will have to go to controller/thermostat to change a setting but basic functionality is always on.

 

@Spinny Side note: if you type an @ then type the user name without spaces, the link comes up and the user gets a notification.

[Spinny]

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

you will have to go to controller/thermostat to change a setting

I agree with your points, except several smart home hubs are not dependent on internet connectivity to function. suppliers are recognising the limitations of that approach. Samsung Smartthings uses local control now running on the hub, Home assistant has always done that; Local control is often via self healing mesh network technology like zwave and zigbee rather than wifi.

Yes if you start using If This Then That and lots of cloud only stuff with a single internet feed. And no battery backup - hubs can have inbuilt battery backup now.

 

On heatmiser I can change settings via the app - vastly easier than doing it on the diabolically tricky to use thermostats. Yes I accept they are stored on the thermostat and a wireless thermostat will go down if you ignore the battery warnings. TBH heatmiser is quite anachronistic in its architecture because it predates current tech and has had wireless and app grafted onto it like a frankenstein monster.

 

I do agree you have to think these through. Wife alone has insisted we have wired light switches (oh how 20th century 🤣)

[mike2016]

On 17/04/2025 at 14:59, Super_Paulie said:

Having done the job now, did you ever go with what you suggested Mike? 

For no other reason other than "just coz" I was wondering if I could rig a smart relay to the system so I get the notification when the relay switches. 

I guess this would be dependant on how the interconnect works, I'd imagine it puts a live on that line when triggered, but I doubt it would be 240v.

 

All fairly pointless, but just a thought.

Bought the Aico EI128RBU relay module base battery back up and directed the electrician spec to install 4 core wire. RadioLink is not standard in Aico's so you have to pay for one as an additional item for each alarm to get all to sound together. Aico have their own landlord relay / smart system but it's proprietary and not linkable to Home Assistant. Any smart relay would do the job, I'm just using Shelly as I'm using them for outside security lighting integrated with CCTV human detection and other use cases and also want to power off my MVHR if the alarm sounds. Just working out how to use smart blinds if power goes to still escape out of a bedroom, but that's a topic for another day! 

[trialuser]

24 minutes ago, mike2016 said:

......and also want to power off my MVHR if the alarm sounds. ....

Not saying this is right or wrong, just an observation, but.

I imagine you reasoning is to deprive a fire of any fresh source of oxygen?

But given that in fires, people almost always die of smoke inhalation before they are roasted, might it be a good idea to leave the ventillation going to remove some smoke and introduce some fresh air?

Or perhaps fire is known to travel between rooms in MVHR ducts? Although most will be a star layout to a distribution manifold.

Genuine question.

[G and J]

3 hours ago, mike2016 said:

Bought the Aico EI128RBU relay module base battery back up and directed the electrician spec to install 4 core wire. RadioLink is not standard in Aico's so you have to pay for one as an additional item for each alarm to get all to sound together. Aico have their own landlord relay / smart system but it's proprietary and not linkable to Home Assistant. Any smart relay would do the job, I'm just using Shelly as I'm using them for outside security lighting integrated with CCTV human detection and other use cases and also want to power off my MVHR if the alarm sounds. Just working out how to use smart blinds if power goes to still escape out of a bedroom, but that's a topic for another day! 

Can you set up home assistant or similar to remind you to change the MVHR filters the day after a major fire?  That might prove useful.   😕 

[Mike]

On 18/04/2025 at 09:41, Spinny said:

I have been looking for a smoke and heat alarm solution which will link to a smart home hub to be able to send notifications to my mobile. I cannot yet find one

If you can skip the smart hub and can make do with just the mobile phone notification, then the Cavius Hub + app can do that. It looks like it may be possible to link it to Home Assistant but I don't have the hub nor a working installation of Home Assistant (yet) to test it myself. If not, then maybe you can connect something to the Cavius CV9004 RF relay,

 

5 hours ago, trialuser said:

given that in fires, people almost always die of smoke inhalation before they are roasted, might it be a good idea to leave the ventillation going to remove some smoke and introduce some fresh air?

I suspect that it may help (though the air volumes would be pretty low) but have seen no evidence either way.

Edited Saturday at 23:53 by Mike

[mike2016]

On 19/04/2025 at 19:44, trialuser said:

Not saying this is right or wrong, just an observation, but.

I imagine you reasoning is to deprive a fire of any fresh source of oxygen?

But given that in fires, people almost always die of smoke inhalation before they are roasted, might it be a good idea to leave the ventillation going to remove some smoke and introduce some fresh air?

Or perhaps fire is known to travel between rooms in MVHR ducts? Although most will be a star layout to a distribution manifold.

Genuine question.

Good point - I'm querying this with the supplier to see if there are studies / recommendations as smoke is my worry rather than fire. I'm going to opt for battery powered smart blinds so they will work even in a power outage / fault as I want to ensure the bedroom escape route through them is available as the blackout blinds have tracks either side so could be difficult to rip open if smoke gets into the bedroom without a tool / torch etc. Plus smart switches to turn on all the bedroom lights if power exists to help light the way down the stairs or find the smart blind remote control to get out the window onto the porch roof. I'm doubting much benefit for oxygen control / combustion, but positive pressure to keep smoke out of the bedrooms would be welcome except if its possible for an extract or other bedroom to start propagating smoke to other areas through the MVHR unit or manifold (nightmare scenario: no light, no power, blinds down, can't find controls to blinds and stairs blocked by smoke/flame, smoke coming in supply vent into bedroom, retreat into ensuite but all my ensuites have no windows openings so it's wet a blanket time and run or rip open the blind and jump). I think I've watched backdraft too many times!! 

 

On 19/04/2025 at 22:56, G and J said:

Can you set up home assistant or similar to remind you to change the MVHR filters the day after a major fire?  That might prove useful.   😕 

 

I'm sure you can, or your calendar linked to an IFTT response, if detect temps > 600oC on the phone, pop a reminder the next day to check the MVHR filter!! If you can find it in the rubble of the house!