Barny Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 We had horizontal GSHP at our old house (so can’t comment on the bore hole) but I would say that when GSHP goes wrong it is expensive. We had a leak and it was ££££ to drain, fix and replace (installer picked up the cost for that). A few years later the connection was leaking - thankfully a bit of sealant solved that so we didn’t have to drain it again. Then the pump itself - was fine for 12 years except the control panel stopped working and it was £1500 to replace and a small electric component needed replace and again expensive. it is supposed to be more efficient than ASHP, which I can believe but it isn’t as responsive so I think you end up paying more because you have it on when you don’t need it. The servicing costs are very high as there are so few of them around so you struggle to find anyone. when we sold our house, people found it confusing and distrusted it would work! we are putting ASHP in the new build! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 28 minutes ago, Barny said: it is supposed to be more efficient than ASHP, It cannot be, if we are thinking of slinkies here. They get their heat from the summer warmth being stored in the ground. At some stage in the winter the heat will mostly be gone It has been quietly acknowledged by ethical gshp suppliers that it is necessary to recharge the ground in summer, using solar panels, or reversing the process to chill the house and warm the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 For a bore hole GSHP to work efficiently, it needs a flow of ground water, so geology is important. A 'slinky' based system works the same as an ASHP in that is using the local mean air temperature, just with less variation around that mean temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) I got a provisional quote for boreholes when I was considering my options in 2019. The cost for two boreholes was estimated to be £17,000. Here is a comparison I made. I was effectively installing a completely new heating system with all new pipework as well as radiators. You'll have to ignore the RHI subsidythat was available at that time. ASHP GSHP Installation Cost £16,653 £23,528 RHI (No inflation) £10,255 £23,170 Difference £6,398 £358 Boreholes £0 £17,000 Property value enhancement £0 ??? Difference £0 £17,000 Running cost over 10 years £10,460 £8,270 Total £16,858 £25,628 Edited April 26 by ReedRichards 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strak Posted April 26 Author Share Posted April 26 17 hours ago, saveasteading said: If you are researching from scratch and looking at options then great. We here can all help with both practice and science. If you are getting advice to use gshp then you are getting very bad advice, unless in Iceland etc. Indeed, I am researching 🙂 The main installer I'm in contact with is in favour of ASHP (clearly the cheaper option), I have no worries about being misled by them on the technology. Experience with them so far talking through options is actually very positive compared to several other installers I've spoken with who don't seem to be as knowledgeable. That said, I don't know whether the quotes I'm getting through are a reasonable cost, so I'm also waiting to get a couple of other ASHP ones. The following is their indicative proposal, coming out at £15290 (£7790 after boiler upgrade scheme discount). Does it seem like it's in the right ballpark? I've seen some much lower prices advertised by Octopus I think, so wondering if the other quotes are going to come in a fair bit lower. Vaillant aroTHERM Plus 7kW Inverter driven ASHP Heat pump controller Heat Pump hot water cylinder as required Buffer tank as required Electrical connections as required Full installation pipe lagged with superior Armaflex insulation MCS Electrical meter MCS Certificate Building control notification Internal and external pipe runs are not included at this stage, the price for this will be assessed during a survey @JohnMo what would need to be added to that proposal to provide cooling? On the GSHP proposal a Nibe PCM S40 passive cooling kit was added, is there something similar for ASHP? Any idea if could setting it up for cooling impact eligibility for the BUS discount? (I read somewhere that it could, but think that might have been part of the anti heat pump fake news). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 3 minutes ago, Strak said: what would need to be added to that proposal to provide cooling? On the GSHP proposal a Nibe PCM S40 passive cooling kit was added, is there something similar for ASHP All you need is an ASHP that does cooling (some don't) and a thermostat that does heating and cooling - Computherm Q20RF for example. BUS doesn't care, if it does cooling. But check for yourself to make sure. But just be careful you are not royally ripped off with the whole bus thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strak Posted April 26 Author Share Posted April 26 11 minutes ago, JohnMo said: All you need is an ASHP that does cooling (some don't) and a thermostat that does heating and cooling - Computherm Q20RF for example. BUS doesn't care, if it does cooling. But check for yourself to make sure. But just be careful you are not royally ripped off with the whole bus thing. Nice, thanks - looks like the ASHP they proposed does do cooling. From the manual: Depending on the country, the product has the heating mode or heating and cooling mode function. Products that are delivered at the factory with no cooling mode are labelled with "S2" in the nomenclature. For these units, an optional accessory can be used to subsequently activate the cooling mode. It is activated and operated via the indoor unit's control and the optional system control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotts Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Are installers now quoting and then adding on the BUS grant as free money in their pocket? £15k seems like a lot of money for a heat pump, HW cylinder and labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 While the general feeling here is against GS, I did visit a guy last week who has had an open loop GSHP with the bore under a shed containing the plant. The bore was about 30-40m into sand & chalk. It had been operational for 10 years and he was fine with it. I'm a bit of a contrarian and can't help noting that the whole of southern Europe is fine with solar thermal also. I'm sure there's a latitude where it becomes less desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 57 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: whole of southern Europe is fine with solar thermal also Solar panels with tanks on the roofs are common in Greece but rare in Spain.. I don't know why. So simple for free hot water, although the last in the shower has missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strak Posted April 26 Author Share Posted April 26 5 hours ago, MrPotts said: Are installers now quoting and then adding on the BUS grant as free money in their pocket? £15k seems like a lot of money for a heat pump, HW cylinder and labour. Indeed - one of my concerns! Any guide on what would feel like a reasonable figure @MrPotts? That pump unit seems to be around £3.5k + VAT based on a quick search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 HW cylinder £1k to 1.5k incl vat Depending on ASHP £2 to 3.5k incl vat Plus another £500 for misc bits and pipe. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strak Posted April 26 Author Share Posted April 26 1 hour ago, JohnMo said: HW cylinder £1k to 1.5k incl vat Depending on ASHP £2 to 3.5k incl vat Plus another £500 for misc bits and pipe. Crikey, so even being generous with the upper limit of those, assuming about a week to install it seems like I'm paying about £1k (probably a bit more) per day labour in this quote? ... if that's the case I'm expecting the other quotes to come in a fair bit lower! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 9 minutes ago, Strak said: paying about £1k (probably a bit more) per day labour in this quote? ... if that's the case I'm expecting the other quotes to come in a fair bit lower! Don't hold your breath 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPotts Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) 2 hours ago, JohnMo said: HW cylinder £1k to 1.5k incl vat Depending on ASHP £2 to 3.5k incl vat Plus another £500 for misc bits and pipe. I find it very frustrating that the consumer is once again being taken advantage of. The £7.5K BUS grant is taxpayers money that could be used elsewhere rather than lining company pockets. If we were quoted fair prices an ASHP (after the grant) would be free! Edited April 26 by MrPotts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 6 minutes ago, MrPotts said: I find it very frustrating that the consumer is once again being taken advantage of. The £7.5K BUS grant is taxpayers money that could be used elsewhere rather than lining company pockets. If we were quoted fair prices an ASHP (after the grant) would be free! There was a response to another thread the other day, they paid £2k after grant, to fit an ASHP and cylinder, to their UFH and manifold. So nearly £10k - day light robbery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 34 minutes ago, MrPotts said: The £7.5K BUS grant is taxpayers money that could be used elsewhere rather than lining company pockets The Government could buy PV capacity, but the problem is, they would make such a pigs ear of it that it would cost £1/kWh delivered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 1 hour ago, Strak said: Crikey, so even being generous with the upper limit of those, assuming about a week to install it seems like I'm paying about £1k (probably a bit more) per day labour in this quote? ... if that's the case I'm expecting the other quotes to come in a fair bit lower! The quotes are generally relatively detailed insofar that you can price up the individual components and compare to the quote. The Ecodan ASHP and pre-plumbed cylinder is a common install option for example. It’s been awhile since I looked but that was around £5500 last time I looked. Add £500-£700 for everything else. In a new build that’s been well planned so an easy install it’ll be two days for the plumber and a day for the electrician so that’s likely £1000 in labour (company rate not day pay rate for the workers) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBano Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Depends on the installers feeling honest. I worked on a bungalow end of last year, they had a nibe 8kw and unvented cylinder in the garage roof. fair amount of work to the heat pump the customer didn’t pay a penny. The plumber did the Ufh heating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 13 hours ago, Strak said: The following is their indicative proposal, coming out at £15290 (£7790 after boiler upgrade scheme discount). Does it seem like it's in the right ballpark? Sounds expensive, what part of the country? You can price it as a complete kit on the Midsummer Wholesale website. IIRC cooling was not allowed under the BUS scheme, I can't find a reference so best to check on the OFGEM web site. The Arotherm plus needs a plug-in coding resistor to do cooling, over £200 UK retail but you can import them from the EU for less, I have read it is the same resistor as fitted to gas boilers for some purpose (presumably not cooling). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 For an ASHP, cooling is not allowed without explicit planning permission. If you don't do cooling then an ASHP may be a permitted development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 3 hours ago, ReedRichards said: For an ASHP, cooling is not allowed without explicit planning permission. This does seem daft, is there a practical answer as to why 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenki Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 On 25/04/2024 at 12:27, Strak said: find that there is a lot of conflicting information online about any form of heat pump, so it's hard to know what is factual. Bit late to reply, but on here you read real world experience from well insulated, air tight homes. Unfortunately there are too many poor installs in properties not suitable. The BUS scheme is just another lobbied robbery scheme to make business owners rich with tax payers money or maybe well intentioned but poorly executed, but I lean to the former. 4 hours ago, ReedRichards said: For an ASHP, cooling is not allowed without explicit planning permission. If you don't do cooling then an ASHP may be a permitted development. Don't tell anyone😉 who will know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 5 hours ago, ReedRichards said: For an ASHP, cooling is not allowed without explicit planning permission. If you don't do cooling then an ASHP may be a permitted development Best no one install an A2A heat pump then without full planning permission - as if that will happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strak Posted April 27 Author Share Posted April 27 15 hours ago, sharpener said: Sounds expensive, what part of the country? You can price it as a complete kit on the Midsummer Wholesale website. IIRC cooling was not allowed under the BUS scheme, I can't find a reference so best to check on the OFGEM web site. The Arotherm plus needs a plug-in coding resistor to do cooling, over £200 UK retail but you can import them from the EU for less, I have read it is the same resistor as fitted to gas boilers for some purpose (presumably not cooling). Based in Cambridge, and the installer is from fairly nearby. From what I read in the manual (quoted somewhere earlier in this thread) some aerotherm models come with that resistor already installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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