Architect & Planning cost confusion

[Ryan Turner]

We are looking to convert a garage into a liveable area and build a porch on the front of the house. Pictures attached for reference.

 

What are the expected costs to reach a point where work can begin? This is the list of things I think we need:

 

• On site survey (is this mandatory? Every architect i've talked to has mentioned we need this)
• Produce existing drawings 
• Proposed design drawings, 2D and 3D architectural drawings.
• Planning management (i.e. they  liaise with the local authority for you)
• Planning fee itself
• Building reg drawings (or are these the same as the above drawings?)
• Structural engineer calculations (do i need these?)
• Building regulations (Local authority says £809 for extension of this size/ £551 for garage conversion, would I need both?)

 

 

What should I budget for all of this?

 

[Redbeard]

I think last time I did a B. Regs app with more than one element the cheapest one was halved in price, so in your case it could be £809 + £275.50.

 

I think I would be tempted to do it on a Building Notice (Simple Bldg Regs app with a brief descr of works and no other detail) rather than Full Plans, but then I'd be building it myself. Depends on the degree of complexity and how much you trust your builder. Planning looks like it ought to be really simple, I *think*. You could draw that, and thus do the Plg app,  yourself, perhaps.

 

Re struct eng'r I suppose you'll at least be changing lintels, if not roof timbers, so yes, you need them, I think.

Edited April 12 by Redbeard

[DreamingTheBuild]

Building regs drawings are the detailed drawing showing how it is going to be built in terms of matierals and regulations.

 

Structural calcs are usually a few hundred quid.

 

£5-7K perhaps???

 

The most vital thing on this is to get a drains survey because you need to know where the water company sewage pipes are.

 

There are some good books on garage conversions that are only a few pounds. Some are dated now but the principles never change.

 

A good way to do this is to go round and talk to neighbours. What tends to happen is one builder will have done quite a few of these as word gets round they have done a good job. Sometimes these builders are a good way to go and they might be able to take care of all the drawings and building control etc with their own network of people. You might find the good ones are booked out for a year plus.

 

So you can go with architect/arch designer route and then put out for quotes or alternately go to a builder first who has worked on your estate.

[ETC]

3 hours ago, Ryan Turner said:

We are looking to convert a garage into a liveable area and build a porch on the front of the house. Pictures attached for reference.

 

What are the expected costs to reach a point where work can begin? This is the list of things I think we need:

 

• On site survey (is this mandatory? Every architect i've talked to has mentioned we need this)Yes but your house looks very simple so it shouldn’t take too long and shouldn’t be too expensive. Are the drawings you posted accurate?
• Produce existing drawings. As above.
• Proposed design drawings, 2D and 3D architectural drawings. 2D design drawings only. No need for. 3D drawings.
• Planning management (i.e. they  liaise with the local authority for you). Yes - needed but a very simple process.
• Planning fee itself. Absolutely.
• Building reg drawings (or are these the same as the above drawings?). No - these will have construction information on them. Planning drawings will only have the floor plans, elevations, a site plan and a location map. The BC drawings will show your builder how to build the works.
• Structural engineer calculations (do i need these?) Can’t see why. The garage conversion is simple enough and the porch won’t need a SE if you keep it simple.
• Building regulations (Local authority says £809 for extension of this size/ £551 for garage conversion, would I need both?) I don’t think so - I’m not in your jurisdiction but you may be able to pay the fee based on an estimated cost of the works although I do see an example where fees are reduced for multiple works in different fee categories.

 

 

What should I budget for all of this?

I would think a reasonable fee from an architect shouldn’t be more than a few grand plus VAT plus planning and BC fees.

 

 

I see that your next door neighbour has converted his/her garage. Speak to them and get an idea of cost. They might even be able to recommend their agent.

 

[torre]

I wouldn't expect you to need planning permission for either a small porch (if you're keeping the front door) or a garage conversion. Building regs would be needed for the garage conversion but again, not the porch.

You may be able to look at your neighbours planning& building regs applications online to get a better idea what they did

[Ryan Turner]

@ETC Thanks so much, very useful. To clarify a few points:

 

"Are the drawings you posted accurate?" 

- These drawings are just the floor plans provided to us when buying the house on the estate agent's listing.

 

" 2D design drawings only. No need for. 3D drawings."

- Could you explain to me why I don't need 3D drawings? Just curious.

 

I don’t think so - I’m not in your jurisdiction but you may be able to pay the fee based on an estimated cost of the works although I do see an example where fees are reduced for multiple works in different fee categories.

- This is the jurisdictions website: https://maidstone.gov.uk/home/primary-services/planning-and-building/building-control/applications-and-applying , would be interested to see how you interpret what I need from the list, assuming its full plan > extension up to 40m^2 and garage conversion under 40m^2, both inspection and submission.  So £317 + £589 +£216 + £401 or am i completely lost?

 

I see that your next door neighbour has converted his/her garage. Speak to them and get an idea of cost. They might even be able to recommend their agent.

- Good idea, we haven't moved into the house yet (expecting exchange to be around 1 or 2 months time) but might be worth trying to reach out to them.

 

I would think a reasonable fee from an architect shouldn’t be more than a few grand plus VAT plus planning and BC fees.

- How does the attached quote seem? Attached was this note "We do also offer a service for supplying Construction Drawings (include heating/electrical layouts and construction specifications for the builders to quote/build from) plus Structural Engineers calculations for any steels that will be required that the builders will also, need to price/build from and this service that can be quoted for following our completion of the planning stage." So would I need more drawings than this, i'm assuming there are no building reg drawings here?

 

Thank you so much again for your answer, so useful. 

[Ryan Turner]

@torre Thank you, good point. I agree that actually planning shouldn't be needed, how would I go about finding building reg applications of neighbours? I can find planning permission submissions but not building reg applications, thanks!

[ETC]

29 minutes ago, Ryan Turner said:

@ETC Thanks so much, very useful. To clarify a few points:

 

"Are the drawings you posted accurate?" 

- These drawings are just the floor plans provided to us when buying the house on the estate agent's listing. If the drawings are accurate I see no reason why you can’t use them.

 

" 2D design drawings only. No need for. 3D drawings."

- Could you explain to me why I don't need 3D drawings? Just curious. Planning and Building Control won’t need a 3D drawing - which would be PIR the porch only anyway.

 

I don’t think so - I’m not in your jurisdiction but you may be able to pay the fee based on an estimated cost of the works although I do see an example where fees are reduced for multiple works in different fee categories.

- This is the jurisdictions website: https://maidstone.gov.uk/home/primary-services/planning-and-building/building-control/applications-and-applying , would be interested to see how you interpret what I need from the list, assuming its full plan > extension up to 40m^2 and garage conversion under 40m^2, both inspection and submission.  So £317 + £589 +£216 + £401 or am i completely lost? I think your assessment is correct but you need to clarify this with BC. In my jurisdiction the fee would be based on an estimated cost.

 

I see that your next door neighbour has converted his/her garage. Speak to them and get an idea of cost. They might even be able to recommend their agent.

- Good idea, we haven't moved into the house yet (expecting exchange to be around 1 or 2 months time) but might be worth trying to reach out to them.

 

I would think a reasonable fee from an architect shouldn’t be more than a few grand plus VAT plus planning and BC fees.

- How does the attached quote seem? Attached was this note "We do also offer a service for supplying Construction Drawings (include heating/electrical layouts and construction specifications for the builders to quote/build from) plus Structural Engineers calculations for any steels that will be required that the builders will also, need to price/build from and this service that can be quoted for following our completion of the planning stage." So would I need more drawings than this, i'm assuming there are no building reg drawings here? Not a bad fee quote. Ask them if the fee include all expenses including printing and mileage which can add up to a few hundred quid. These drawings are ONLY for Planning. They mention 3D - you won’t need any 3D but I am presuming they are using Revit which defaults to 3D. You should ask them for a fee quote for construction drawings and to get you a Building Control Approval. This will leave you at the stages here you have a set of drawing from which you can build. Theses are NOT tender drawings and may not have sufficient detail to get you an accurate cost from a builder - they may be but then they may not. If you are not confident enough to manage the tender process - if that is what you intend to do - you may have a builder in mind - or the construction phase you may wish to ask them for a fee quote to prepare tender drawings/documents, to tender the works and to inspect the works. 

 

Thank you so much again for your answer, so useful. 

 

[bassanclan]

You don't need architect plans for that job.

Just bear in mind PD limits for eaves and ridge heights of your porch (i presume flat roof anyway?)

Save your architect money and put it into insulating the garage as much as you can

[Hughgo12]

 

• On site survey (is this mandatory? Every architect i've talked to has mentioned we need this) - No architect will do a design without a site survey to measure up to gain an understanding of the current construction, services, heights etc. But not a huge amount of work in this, they shouldnt relay on existing plans from others.
• Produce existing drawings - As above simple
• Proposed design drawings, 2D and 3D architectural drawings - would also bin the 3D unless there's no cost for them, but there normally is.  2D will have all the information required
• Planning management (i.e. they  liaise with the local authority for you) - You could do this, sometimes playing dumb on the phone and simply asking works. Planning stage isnt rocket science 
• Planning fee itself - Obviously needed 
• Building reg drawings (or are these the same as the above drawings?) - These will be worked up from the planning drawing. Planning is basically a picture of what your getting but reg drawings are the instructions on how its built
• Structural engineer calculations (do i need these?) - Could do that without structural calcs but an architect will cover themselves. 
• Building regulations (Local authority says £809 for extension of this size/ £551 for garage conversion, would I need both?) - Cant advice much on that.

Most of the time architects fees include a few extras to make it look like your getting alot. Then the stuff you actually need is extra.

 

That conversion looks simple enough to be honest . Although , looking at your front elevation things like the ramp and roof height should be looked at, the lintel above the garage door looks quite low with not much scope to increase. You'll need to check that your door meets the minimum height .

 

 

[DevilDamo]

48 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

Just bear in mind PD limits for eaves and ridge heights of your porch

Eaves heights are irrelevant. It’s the overall height.

[torre]

https://pa.midkent.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do?action=simple&searchType=BuildingControl looks like your local building control search from your other answers. Speaking to your future neighbours may get you the same info, plus a recommendation of who did their work

[bassanclan]

2 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

Eaves heights are irrelevant. It’s the overall height.

It is too big for a porch pd, but it is pd single storey:

 

If the extension is within 2m of a boundary, maximum eaves height should be no higher than 3m to be permitted development.

[AliG]

I wouldn't employ an architect for this.

 

I would look for a builder to do a design and build.

 

Assuming you are not a conservation area then this is permitted development so no planning and planning drawings are needed. You could give them some details on area and height of the porch and ask them to confirm it is PD.

 

Builders would do the plans for the warrant as they will be working to them. No structural calcs needed as no structural changes other than the rear window. Even for that it is a small single storey building, you can look up the required size of lintel.

[DevilDamo]

36 minutes ago, AliG said:

Assuming you are not a conservation area then this is permitted development

Not being within a CA isn’t the only trigger for these works not requiring Planning.

 

Edit: And as a side note, the porch would exceed the PD requirements anyway so Planning would be required for that element for starters. 

Edited April 13 by DevilDamo

[DevilDamo]

22 hours ago, bassanclan said:

It is too big for a porch pd, but it is pd single storey:

 

If the extension is within 2m of a boundary, maximum eaves height should be no higher than 3m to be permitted development.

It projects forward of a principal elevation so would require Planning.

[AliG]

7 hours ago, DevilDamo said:

It projects forward of a principal elevation so would require Planning.

TBH I had just gone on previous comments suggesting it was PD. However, checking the rules, the garage would be considered part of the principal elevation and so as drawn the porch would not be PD.

 

But the limit for porch PD is 3sq metres which could be achieved easily.

 

Anyway my suggestion was to give some details to the council planning department and have them confirm it is permitted development which would clarify the issue.

 

If a larger porch was required it is such a simple extension you could draw up the plans yourself or have the builder draw them up.

[DevilDamo]

Yeh, if the OP is willing to reduce it to 3sq.m, then that is a possibility. They’d still need to check the PD situation and rights being intact. Same with the garage conversion. 

[bassanclan]

I think a council would struggle to enforce against the permitted development.

 

In theory the garage could be knocked down and then the porch would be entirely permitted development, which makes a mockery of the guidance

[DevilDamo]

PD is PD. There isn’t any lenience one way or another. The OP would just need to apply for Planning and tbh, what are the chances a small porch extension wouldn’t go through?