12V batteries for Loxone Power Supply and Backup

[Thorfun]

greetings. looking for batteries for backup to my 24V Loxone stuff via the power supply and backup. I need 3 x 12V batteries and I'm thinking AGM batteries are the way to go as this website seems to suggest they're more efficient and according to the Loxone knowledge base they say 

 

Quote

The charging electronics of the power supply is designed for lead-acid batteries in standby application.
Sealed (VRLA/SLA) Gel or AGM batteries are recommended, which are suitable for this application.

 

All my 24V lights running at the same time would be around 40A or 960W. so let's assume that I have 3 x 15Ah batteries that would mean I could only run the 24V lights for only 2hrs max! doesn't seem like a long time. so, therefore, I need bigger capacity batteries, right? but then the cost starts increasing dramatically!

 

if I look at Tanya.co.uk a 45Ah battery is about £175. so 3 of those is just over £500. but that would give me 135Ah of backup which would run the lights for 5hrs.

 

which doesn't seem a lot either!

 

has anyone out there who has a power supply & backup connected 36V batteries and, if so, which did you go for?

 

(note. if my maths above is wrong please feel free to correct me! I think you know by now that maths/physics/electrics are not my strong point)

[MikeSharp01]

21 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

running at the same time would be around 40A or 960W

Are you sure - that is an awful lot of Watts for a LED illuminated house these days. Even if all your LED lamps were 5W you would be lighting 192 of them. LED strips can be quite power Hungry I suppose - whats the mix?

[Thorfun]

28 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Are you sure - that is an awful lot of Watts for a LED illuminated house these days. Even if all your LED lamps were 5W you would be lighting 192 of them. LED strips can be quite power Hungry I suppose - whats the mix?

lots of RGBW LED strips tbh. probably won't have all of them on at the same time but I've calculated the max current to ensure that I stay within the max of the power supply. Also have quite a few normal LED strips around the place as accent lights. 

 

in a power cut our mains lights won't be working so the LED strips will be the main lighting. although I am thinking about asking the electrician to see if we can get the mains lights (3 x Loxone relays and 1 x WW mains dimmer) powered off the batteries but that will mean 2 x feeds in to the Loxone cabinet from different consumer units and it'll start getting really complicated!

[Thorfun]

I wonder if it's possible to turn off the RGB component of RGBW lights in Loxone config in the case of a power cut? that will reduce the potential power usage substantially!

[Thorfun]

 

here's my spreadsheet of all my 24V LEDs/LED Strips. the last column is the current each will draw at full power and the total in bold on each output of the PSUB.

[Alan Ambrose]

Do you need every channel of every LED strip turned to full brightness in a power cut? A LED takes about 9 times less power than an old fashioned filament bulb. So your 960W of backup LED power is equivalent to about 190 old fashioned 60W bulbs. That’s a lot of lighting to use in a power cut .

 

Maybe just pick a few essential lights for that not very common ‘use case’?

[Thorfun]

7 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Do you need every channel of every LED strip turned to full brightness in a power cut? A LED takes about 9 times less power than an old fashioned filament bulb. So your 960W of backup LED power is equivalent to about 190 old fashioned 60W bulbs. That’s a lot of lighting to use in a power cut .

 

Maybe just pick a few essential lights for that not very common ‘use case’?

That is definitely the sensible thing to do. I was just thinking of a worse case scenario and planning for it. But maybe 45Ah will be enough for emergency battery backup for the 24V lights. It’s definitely a cheaper option to try to start with! Although even with only 1/3 of the lights running that’s only 6hrs illumination. Enough to get us to bedtime in the winter though I guess. 

[Alan Ambrose]

Will this work?
 

One evening, adjust your lighting to your preferred minimum as though you were having a power cut. Measure the current / power draw. You can get a similar figure during daylight too if you need any lights on then.

That’ll give you the max realistic power draw you need to cope. Then you can make a little table for run time vs. battery capacity. Check the number of hours between sunset to bedtime on the shortest day and the longest.

 

Those few numbers should allow you to make the trade off you need.

 

[Thorfun]

6 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Will this work?
 

One evening, adjust your lighting to your preferred minimum as though you were having a power cut. Measure the current / power draw. You can get a similar figure during daylight too if you need any lights on then.

That’ll give you the max realistic power draw you need to cope. Then you can make a little table for run time vs. battery capacity. Check the number of hours between sunset to bedtime on the shortest day and the longest.

 

Those few numbers should allow you to make the trade off you need.

 

that would definitely work and is a great idea but with the one slight snag that i haven't fitted any of those LED strips yet! 😉 

 

i was hoping to start fitting those this weekend if i get time after doing some plumbing work. but it is a great idea and i can put off buying these batteries until after i have that data.

[SteamyTea]

16 hours ago, Thorfun said:

i was hoping to start fitting those this weekend

Can you install 'emergency' lighting.  Say a 3W bulb somewhere suitable and a small changeover switch.

[garrymartin]

I have three trains of thought here. Firstly, what's controlling the lighting on Loxone (you mentioned Relay and Dimmer for the mains voltage, what does the 24V?) and what options does that give you to change the characteristics of the lighting in the event of a power cut to reduce the demand? Secondly, as @SteamyTea mentioned above, can you incorporate some emergency lighting components instead? Thirdly, how often do you have a power cut? Would a few portable battery lights not be sufficient if nothing else in the house is powered? The couple of times over the many years that we've lost power for any extended period, we've just used battery work lights and torches as necessary.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Can you install 'emergency' lighting.  Say a 3W bulb somewhere suitable and a small changeover switch.

yes of course. but we'd like to illuminate 'luxuriously' during a power cut rather than just bare minimum. 😉 

 

48 minutes ago, garrymartin said:

I have three trains of thought here. Firstly, what's controlling the lighting on Loxone (you mentioned Relay and Dimmer for the mains voltage, what does the 24V?) and what options does that give you to change the characteristics of the lighting in the event of a power cut to reduce the demand? Secondly, as @SteamyTea mentioned above, can you incorporate some emergency lighting components instead? Thirdly, how often do you have a power cut? Would a few portable battery lights not be sufficient if nothing else in the house is powered? The couple of times over the many years that we've lost power for any extended period, we've just used battery work lights and torches as necessary.

 

i have a Whitewing DMX 24V dimmer that controls the 24V lighting. we don't have power cuts often (although we had one just last week for about 3hrs) but often enough that i want to plan for them. i also need to plan for the zombie apocalypse when it finally hits.

[garrymartin]

 

42 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

i also need to plan for the zombie apocalypse when it finally hits.

 

🤣

 

Most online "ready-to-go" kits for the Loxone Power Supply & Backup seem to be 12Ah with a couple of 24Ah. I'd note that the 24Ah one weighs 26.5kg, so your potential 145Ah solution is not only going to be expensive, it's going to be bloody heavy too!

 

I'd get the lights in first, then see what the actual draw is when in normal use, and what would be an acceptable dimmed position in the event of a power cut and then go from there.

 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, garrymartin said:

 

 

🤣

 

Most online "ready-to-go" kits for the Loxone Power Supply & Backup seem to be 12Ah with a couple of 24Ah. I'd note that the 24Ah one weighs 26.5kg, so your potential 145Ah solution is not only going to be expensive, it's going to be bloody heavy too!

 

I'd get the lights in first, then see what the actual draw is when in normal use, and what would be an acceptable dimmed position in the event of a power cut and then go from there.

 

yeah. it is the wise thing. it's interesting that no one on here that has the power supply and backup is utilising the backup facility! although i know @joth has one but he's living it up and is slow to respond at the moment.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> i haven't fitted any of those LED strips yet!

 

You can jury-rig a strip to measure it or just estimate: I suggest the equivalent of 10 x 60W old-style bulbs would allow you 'to illuminate 'luxuriously' during a power cut'. That's about 60W equivalent total of LED lighting. 10 hours of that would be 0.6 kWh, which at 12V is 50Ah - so one typical LA battery.

 

Plus whatever the Loxone rig takes when it's idle, which could be a non-trivial bit.

 

Plan to use one battery and add more if you really need it later?

[garrymartin]

It is strange, given our reliance on power for all sorts of things. I'd want to keep at least the Loxone MiniServer up and functional, especially if using it for alarm/security too, but I'd be happy with less/dimmed lighting in that sort of emergency. I'd also want something for powering some of the 230V essentials outside of the Loxone system though, like the CCTV system so that cameras were still recording in the event of a "deliberate" power cut...

 

 

22 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Plan to use one battery and add more if you really need it later?

 

It needs 36V, so three 12V in series usually.

 

[Thorfun]

23 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> i haven't fitted any of those LED strips yet!

 

You can jury-rig a strip to measure it or just estimate: I suggest the equivalent of 10 x 60W old-style bulbs would allow you 'to illuminate 'luxuriously' during a power cut'. That's about 60W equivalent total of LED lighting. 10 hours of that would be 0.6 kWh, which at 12V is 50Ah - so one typical LA battery.

 

Plus whatever the Loxone rig takes when it's idle, which could be a non-trivial bit.

 

Plan to use one battery and add more if you really need it later?

Loxone miniserver and extensions are minimal so i'm not even going to factor those in.

 

for the PSUB you need 3 x 12V batteries as it's a 36V battery backup system. so it's all or nothing on that front.

 

i'm sure i can reduce the power draw for each LED strip in certain circumstances within Loxone config but i haven't got that far in to my learnings yet. maybe i do simply start with a low cost 45Ah setup and can then reasses if/when i ever need to!

 

i'm in no rush for the batteries as we're not even living there yet but i like to start my research early so i can forget what i've researched a few months down the line when i'm ready to purchase so i have to research it all over again. 🤦‍♂️ 

 

so plenty of time to fit the LEDs and see how they perform dimmed at night. i can then measure the power draw through Loxone as the PSUB should give those readings.

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, garrymartin said:

It is strange, given our reliance on power for all sorts of things. I'd want to keep at least the Loxone MiniServer up and functional, especially if using it for alarm/security too, but I'd be happy with less/dimmed lighting in that sort of emergency. I'd also want something for powering some of the 230V essentials outside of the Loxone system though, like the CCTV system so that cameras were still recording in the event of a "deliberate" power cut...

i have mains battery backup too. currently 6.4kWh capacity but it is easily expandable by simply adding another battery or two (or three, or four)

[joth]

On 09/04/2024 at 11:46, Thorfun said:

yeah. it is the wise thing. it's interesting that no one on here that has the power supply and backup is utilising the backup facility! although i know @joth has one but he's living it up and is slow to respond at the moment.

Not my house but I installed a PS+B for someone else. I went with Yuasa REC36-12  36Ah

 

[Thorfun]

had a power cut last night and was without lights. had to run an extension lead from my 230V batteries and plug some table lamps in which wasn't ideal. so while i was waiting for the power to come back on i bought 3 of these https://www.tayna.co.uk/mobility-batteries/yuasa/rec14-12/

 

should give me 42Ah so we'll see how we get on. we have a scheduled power outage next week so if i can get them installed before then i can do a good test run.

[Pocster]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

had a power cut last night and was without lights. had to run an extension lead from my 230V batteries and plug some table lamps in which wasn't ideal. so while i was waiting for the power to come back on i bought 3 of these https://www.tayna.co.uk/mobility-batteries/yuasa/rec14-12/

 

should give me 42Ah so we'll see how we get on. we have a scheduled power outage next week so if i can get them installed before then i can do a good test run.

I thought you had a ‘proper’ battery ( like Tesla ) which kicks in on power out ..?

[Thorfun]

12 minutes ago, Pocster said:

I thought you had a ‘proper’ battery ( like Tesla ) which kicks in on power out ..?

i have a LuxPower system with 6.4kWh of battery storage with EPS but it's max 16A and only runs 'essentials' like our sump pumps, the MVHR and (eventually) the networking gear. we have a few 13A sockets wired up too which i can run extension leads from if required.

 

so having the Loxone backup battery to run 24V lights is perfect as pretty much every room has an LED strip of some kind and so we can navigate the house in a power cut at night.

[Temp]

3 hours ago, Thorfun said:

had a power cut last night and was without lights. had to run an extension lead from my 230V batteries and plug some table lamps in which wasn't ideal. so while i was waiting for the power to come back on i bought 3 of these https://www.tayna.co.uk/mobility-batteries/yuasa/rec14-12/

 

should give me 42Ah so we'll see how we get on. we have a scheduled power outage next week so if i can get them installed before then i can do a good test run.

 

Why 3 batteries?

 

Does the system need 12V and step it up to 24V?  

[SteamyTea]

47 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

only runs 'essentials' like our sump pumps, the MVHR and (eventually) the networking gear.

First two of them are not essential, third is debatable.

 

Maybe look at what you really do need i.e. heat, light, cooking, the rest can be disconnected for several hours without impacting anything.

[Thorfun]

35 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

Why 3 batteries?

 

Does the system need 12V and step it up to 24V?  

battery backup is 36V. so 3 x 12V in series is the recommended setup.