Should we put a sink in the island or against the wall?

[Russdl]

4 hours ago, Annker said:

I have a vague recollection of hearing that it (recirculating extraction) isn't that effective

Perhaps it’s worth revisiting that vague recollection? They work well.  
 

If you’re considering MVHR then you must be planning on good levels of air tightness and if you are, why punch a big old hole in the wall to let all that lovely warm air out?

[Mattg4321]

1 hour ago, markocosic said:

 

1) Something to cause a prosecution 

 

2) Proof beyond reasonable doubt 

 

3) Evidence that the protections as afforded elsewhere are sufficient

 

Lost neutral is the concern. It's not materially more of a concern in a bathroom vs a utility room or kitchen.

 

The IET are cautious and also presumptive.

 

Bare feet and wet bodies are the argument. It's fairly damn presumptuous of the IET that folks don't have bare feet or wet hands in utility rooms or kitchens. The houses and machines that the regs were originally written for are also materially riskier than houses of today.

 

Don't tell them about dishwashers and metal sinks also being wet. Or fridges being earthed and not on RCDs. Or ovens. Hobs. Blah blah.

 

The regs are too inconsistent and light in their justification to support a prosecution.

 

Which would require something to happen. Which it won't. Save for a lost neutral. Which is going to screw you no matter where the washing machine is in a PME house?

 

What am I missing; safety wise rather than tradition and custom wise?

You can argue the rights or wrongs of it until you’re blue in the face. The regs are the regs. They’re not a statutory document, but they are admissible in court. 
 

Generally you’re going to be much more likely to be covered in water, without shoes on in a bathroom, than a kitchen is their argument. In all honesty I agree with most of what you’re saying, I just think it’s iffy ground to advise people to ignore the relevant regulations. It’s probably going to be ok for a DIYer in their own home if pulled back out before a sale/rental, but when you’re a professional working in someone’s home…it’ll be the regulations or not at all for me - as much as I don’t agree with them all the time. 

[Annker]

50 minutes ago, Russdl said:

Perhaps it’s worth revisiting that vague recollection? They work well.  

Thanks for the prompt.

Actually I do recall now that indeed they work plainly awful.

 

[Russdl]

You can lead a horse to water…

[markocosic]

5 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

The regs are the regs. They’re not a statutory document, but they are admissible in court. 

 

The guidance is the guidance. Standard is the standard. They're not regulations of any sort. You'd be just as backside covered with demonstrably equivalent (persons killed per capita per year by leccy?) guidance from an equivalent country.

 

Agree that if being paid you advise following UK regs for ease and for peace of mind but having to justify their validity.

 

I already think it's fine to have euro regs. Then again I also have a wooden bathroom floor so dry get and am as often barefoot in the rest of the house as the bathroom. If it ain't safe to touch whilst naked in a phone booth it probably ain't safe no matter which room it's in. Dead PEN and imported earth exceeding the ground is that scenario IMO. Not washing machine in the bathroom.

[Mattg4321]

14 hours ago, markocosic said:

 

The guidance is the guidance. Standard is the standard. They're not regulations of any sort. You'd be just as backside covered with demonstrably equivalent (persons killed per capita per year by leccy?) guidance from an equivalent country.

 

Agree that if being paid you advise following UK regs for ease and for peace of mind but having to justify their validity.

 

I already think it's fine to have euro regs. Then again I also have a wooden bathroom floor so dry get and am as often barefoot in the rest of the house as the bathroom. If it ain't safe to touch whilst naked in a phone booth it probably ain't safe no matter which room it's in. Dead PEN and imported earth exceeding the ground is that scenario IMO. Not washing machine in the bathroom.

They are regulations. It even says as much on the front!

 

If you think it’s fine to follow the rules of a third country, then crack on. In the unlikely event you end up in court, you’ll be expected to have followed the rules of this country. 
 

You can legally drive in some US states at 15, but you won’t be allowed to do it here, no matter how much you might demonstrate you have the reactions of Max Verstappen, the IQ of Einstein and the maturity of David Attenborough

[Mike]

21 hours ago, markocosic said:

The guidance is the guidance. Standard is the standard. They're not regulations of any sort.

Technically true - I found an article stetting out the situation at https://electriciantraining.co.uk/bs7671-iee-wiring-regulations/

 

6 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

You'd be just as backside covered with demonstrably equivalent (persons killed per capita per year by leccy?) guidance from an equivalent country.

Looks like all EU countries (and some others, including the UK) base their recent national standards on common standards agreed internationally by the European Committee for Standardisation, European Committee for Electrotechnical Standardisation, and European Telecommunications Standards Institute. Indeed those in the EU are required to do so by EU regulation 1025/2012.

 

However there are no doubt some important national differences that could land you in court. For example, here in France I'd prefer to install the Type F power outlets that are found in the majority of EU countries, rather than the French Type E. Both France and Germany share Type CEE 7/7 plugs, so no obvious problem. However old-style French plugs (albeit pretty rare these days) also fit both, but won't connect to earth in a German one, which could be fatal...

[markocosic]

18 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

They are regulations. It even says as much on the front!

 

They're not law. UK regulations. There the regulations of the IET. Equivalent legal standing to say the MCS 'regulations' in heat pumps.

 

18 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

In the unlikely event you end up in court, you’ll be expected to have followed the rules of this country. 

 

Laws which only say "must be safe" but leave it up to you to demonstrate how you made it safe. Such as, but not limited to, following established custom and practice in the IET guidance.

 

18 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

You can legally drive in some US states at 15, but you won’t be allowed to do it here, no matter how much you might demonstrate you have the reactions of Max Verstappen, the IQ of Einstein and the maturity of David Attenborough

 

Not a valid comparison. Building regulations are a valid comparison. "Must not burn down" being a regulation, which can be met by "made from concrete" for example, but the regulations don't force you to use concrete.

 

As you're seen there's also fudge all chance of consequence even if you did decide to clad a high rise building in flammable materials and kill dozens of people. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove inadequacy not the other way around. You'd be hard pushed to do this if following overseas rules proven to work. Or stating that if it can go in there kitchen it can bloody well go in the bathroom about with that metal light fitting etc.

 

 

[FuerteStu]

I think it falls more under the category of 'why would you not?' in terms of regulations. 

 

The letter of the law is inconsequential if the risk is unnecessarily ignored. 

 

Other laws could be used to prosecute if your actions went against guidelines and caused harm. 

 

Admittedly, the regulations are bizarre at times. Ceiling pendants being one of those areas. Class 2 but metal lampshade fitted to the bayonet, step down to 0.5 flex but no protection other than the 10A mcb.. On a device that is head height that typically an untrained person sticks you their hand up towards in the dark to change the lamp not knowing if its on or off. But that's besides the point. 

 

A socket in the bathroom will be used by every teenage girl for hairdryers and the likes. It's an unnecessary risk. 

[markocosic]

12 hours ago, FuerteStu said:

A socket in the bathroom will be used by every teenage girl for hairdryers and the likes. It's an unnecessary risk. 

 

So what?

 

Sockets are currently allowed a large enough bathroom.

 

They're just as likely to be sopping wet and with bare feet as in a small bathroom.

 

The IET thinking that they don't come with leads more than three metres long / won't be used with extensions and that you won't sit on the edge of a the bathtub whilst using them is...cute.

 

 

Washing machines are effectively allowed in bathrooms if 0.6 metres away from the bath and you feed the from a fused outlet by the way. Even under the IET guidance. Has been the case for a long time.

 

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/1450/section-701.pdf

 

 

30 mA RCD; don't dunk things in the bathtub; try not to die of diabetes?

 

Pendant lamps. Ring mains. Plenty of dubious in the regs.