Spinny Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 Hypothetically, If a plumber installed an unvented cylinder without holding a current G3 certification, how would this need to be resolved to get the unvented cylinder install certified as G3 building regs compliant ? And what would be the warranty situation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 You would possibly have to pay another plumber to inspect and certify another's work - good luck with that. Or get building control to sign it off - at the plumbers expense But bottom line is the plumber should know better and not be installing, or should have lined another or building control up to certify. I suspect there are lots of un-certified cylinders in the UK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 I don’t see uncertified as an option… - Stops BC signing off the build - Invalidates insurance - An issue if selling the property - unethical & ‘illegal’ why are manufacturers allowed to sell unvented cylinders to non G3 plumbers ? oddly cylinder manufacturers run systems to trigger gas safe and g3 certification when the plumber registers the install/warranty. But surely they should check the plumber for G3 at point of sale, not post install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceverge Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 You could put in a thermal store and avoid the whole thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 5 minutes ago, Iceverge said: You could put in a thermal store and avoid the whole thing. That's what I did when we were in the middle of Covid lockdown and needed a cylinder - it works very well and will be used to dump excess pv when the time comes. 2 hours ago, Spinny said: Hypothetically, If a plumber installed an unvented cylinder without holding a current G3 certification, how would this need to be resolved to get the unvented cylinder install certified as G3 building regs compliant ? And what would be the warranty situation ? There are two different things here: The G3 training certificate to gain and show competence Being registered with a competent person scheme to self certify You can be G3 trained without being a member of a competence scheme, something that some plumbers are bacause they don't do gas, for example. If you're not registered with a scheme you then pay building control or another plumber to certify. Without training and competency scheme membership, there's a problem, but there seems to be very little come back any way if people do. 25 minutes ago, Spinny said: why are manufacturers allowed to sell unvented cylinders to non G3 plumbers ? You can ask the same question about gas and oil boilers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 Well for a gas safe plumber I understand their G3 status gets recorded on the gas safe register. Although when I try to search for plumbers with G3 on the register there don’t seem to be any in my major city ?!? (But perhaps that is just a problem with the gas safe search function?) if a plumber won’t show you a separate G3 accreditation ID card, how do you definitively establish they don’t have G3 ? (other than simply waiting forever for a G3 regs certificate which never comes and never being able to get the build approved by building control as a result) Presumably if reported to gas safe they would get struck off for being a lying **** . But then you would end up with no G3 and no gas safe either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 4 hours ago, Spinny said: Well for a gas safe plumber I understand their G3 status gets recorded on the gas safe register. Although when I try to search for plumbers with G3 on the register there don’t seem to be any in my major city ?!? (But perhaps that is just a problem with the gas safe search function?) if a plumber won’t show you a separate G3 accreditation ID card, how do you definitively establish they don’t have G3 ? The Gas Safe website is an abomination. I don't understand how they get away with it. Try using it for managing Gas Safe registrations etc. The search is most likely not working as it regularly doesn't. If someone is Gas Safe registered and G3 they will have it on their Gas Safe ID card listed on the back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 (edited) And if they claim their gas safe card hasn’t been updated yet ? As I understand it if you complete and pass a G3 accreditation training course then you are issued with a specific G3 photo ID card. So some plumbers may carry both cards, but others just carry their gas safe card if it has been updated to include their G3 approval. Perhaps someone who has done the course can confirm ? Edited March 21 by Spinny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 1 hour ago, Spinny said: And if they claim their gas safe card hasn’t been updated yet ? As I understand it if you complete and pass a G3 accreditation training course then you are issued with a specific G3 photo ID card. So some plumbers may carry both cards, but others just carry their gas safe card if it has been updated to include their G3 approval. Perhaps someone who has done the course can confirm ? Yes, you get a lovely little competence achievement card from the awarding body with an expiry date on the back. I never carry both cards, just my Gas Safe card, even when it hadn't been updated. But if you're concerned, you just need to call gas safe to check on the installer. They will confirm if they're registered for G3. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 2 hours ago, Spinny said: Perhaps someone who has done the course can confirm Depending on time between course and card issue, mine took 6 weeks to arrive. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenki Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 18 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Depending on time between course and card issue, mine took 6 weeks to arrive Mine too.. I've commissioned mine and I'm not registered via a scheme. I've sent the paperwork to Building control for my completion certificate this week. They didn't seem to have an issue when they came to inspect so we will see. (Scotland) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 5 hours ago, Jenki said: Mine too.. I've commissioned mine and I'm not registered via a scheme. I've sent the paperwork to Building control for my completion certificate this week. They didn't seem to have an issue when they came to inspect so we will see. (Scotland) Why would they inspect if you are G3 and gas safe certified ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenki Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Spinny said: Why would they inspect if you are G3 and gas safe certified ? Who said anything about gas safe. I've been plumbing for years but not gas. So I did the G3, so I could do my own heating and DHW. Thus I'm not in any scheme Edited March 21 by Jenki 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 OK I see. Thanks. I guess that is another possible option - get myself G3 certified and then certify the work the non G3 plumber has done. Id be ok with the theory but I guess there is a practical element or a need to already be a qualified plumber first. So not viable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 22 minutes ago, Spinny said: get myself G3 certified and then certify the work You would only be able to self-certify the work if you become a member of a competent person's scheme. If you are trained and get a certificate of competence you can do the installation but it must be certified by building control or someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 7 minutes ago, SimonD said: must be certified by building control I spoke to our building control and followed up with email and got this reply "Thanks for your email, unless the install is part of a building warrant application we wouldn’t need any details/registering." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 8 hours ago, JohnMo said: "Thanks for your email, unless the install is part of a building warrant application we wouldn’t need any details/registering." Two things cross my mind here. Scotland has a different BC system than England, and you are in Scotland. What would happen if it had a problem and someone was injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: What would happen if it had a problem and someone was injured Scottish building regs are different - extracts below "Guidance is given to minimise the risk of explosion due to malfunction of an unvented hot water vessel by: ensuring that such installations are carried out by appropriately qualified personnel" And "be carried out by a person with appropriate training and practical experience. This might include current membership of a registration scheme operated by a recognised professional body. the installer should be a competent person" Our rules basically say should be a competent person with suitable training and experience. This might be demonstrated by membership of a recognised scheme. I have the experience and training certificate to demonstrate competency. If there's problems it is no different to anything else, the person that signs on the dotted line is the responsible person, member of a sign off scheme or otherwise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonD Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 49 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Scottish building regs are different - extracts below "Guidance is given to minimise the risk of explosion due to malfunction of an unvented hot water vessel by: ensuring that such installations are carried out by appropriately qualified personnel" And "be carried out by a person with appropriate training and practical experience. This might include current membership of a registration scheme operated by a recognised professional body. the installer should be a competent person" Our rules basically say should be a competent person with suitable training and experience. This might be demonstrated by membership of a recognised scheme. I have the experience and training certificate to demonstrate competency. If there's problems it is no different to anything else, the person that signs on the dotted line is the responsible person, member of a sign off scheme or otherwise. I think that's actually like a lot of things south of the border too - you just need to demonstrate competency. But you have to be careful here because the interpretation in law of a 'competent person' is developing towards a meaning that a competent person is only one who is registered with a competent person scheme - this is indeed the case in gas, for example, and I suspect will be the case for things like G3 and is moving towards this with electrics too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 3 hours ago, SimonD said: 'competent person' is developing towards a meaning that a competent person is only one who is registered with a competent person scheme Wonder MCS will try to grab that also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 12 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Wonder MCS will try to grab that also. They have already (sort of) in the way that they have written 'The MCS Planning Standards'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenki Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 On 21/03/2024 at 13:02, Jenki said: Mine too.. I've commissioned mine and I'm not registered via a scheme. I've sent the paperwork to Building control for my completion certificate this week. They didn't seem to have an issue when they came to inspect so we will see. (Scotland) I can confirm, BC (Scotland) were happy with my self certified G3 compliance and signed off my build today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Jenki said: signed off my build today Well done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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