DreamingTheBuild Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 Hello everyone, Just thought I'd share this because the project is just starting, they got Class Q and now full pp at the start of Feb '24. The build is going to be about 500sqm on the ground floor which will comprise main house plus annexe, plus main house bedrooms of 175sqm on the first floor. The original building is a large cowshed of steel, block and Yorkshire boarding built around 1972. The new house will have a new outer wall ie bigger dimensions plus a new timber internal walling which will support the upper storey. Roof is to be metal with insulation attached. So far the old slab is out and repairs are being done to the steels. Currently the plan seems to be to put a new slab down on the existing hardcore and also lay some foundations for the timber frame inside, plus foundations outside for the new skin, hopefully this is making some sense! So far I have learned a lot from the videos and also the steel portal threads on here, hopefully people will find a practical example like this of interest. This couple are first time builders/developers so please do factor that in, they certainly are brave taking on such a large project. One technical question I have is will all the MOT type 1 have to come out and be replaced with new??? If anyone wants to watch the action the channel is on YouTube and called 'The Restoration Couple'. It would be great to hear thoughts and feedback on this so we can all learn, TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 Why do people need such colossal houses? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 (edited) Interesting question! In this case what seems to have happened is they only ever wanted one house on the site. Under Class Q they got approval for two houses, they could have got three or even four had they wanted them. When they did their full app the second house became an annexe. The said they did want a smaller house but the LPA did not want the size changed, so they were a bit hamstrung by that point. I think something else in the mix was they were very keen for it to be a two storey and I don't think they had enough height under Class Q due to how they were going to insulate the roof. So wanting a single two storey house has led them to this point. Edited March 19 by DreamingTheBuild duplicate word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 One question I do have is that I believe they have commenced groundworks on the conversion with an SE but under 'farming rules' and not Building Control or an approved inspector it seems. I was just wondering how that works exactly when you are replacing slabs and pouring foundations??? Is it a perfectly safe way to proceed or is there some real risk involved with starting like this before you have got building regs approval??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted April 8 Author Share Posted April 8 I am still following this 'YouTube' build and the chap now wants to self pour the foundation slab in six stages to keep costs down, he is proposing around 60sqm each time. Is this even possible though? I read that you would have to connect the rebar or mesh through the formwork so that it was still a continuous piece of concrete. Also I read that there could be problems on the edges of these slabs as regards levels. Is this right? They are also compacting the existing MOT with a large angle iron connected to a bucket, is that a valid process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 1 hour ago, DreamingTheBuild said: I am still following this 'YouTube' build and the chap now wants to self pour the foundation slab in six stages to keep costs down, he is proposing around 60sqm each time. Is this even possible though? I read that you would have to connect the rebar or mesh through the formwork so that it was still a continuous piece of concrete. Also I read that there could be problems on the edges of these slabs as regards levels. Is this right? They are also compacting the existing MOT with a large angle iron connected to a bucket, is that a valid process? It depends what your tolerance for risk and any differential settlement is. You can pour slabs in stages. Connecting them isn't strictly needed for a domestic slab, but is easily done. Drill 10-12mm holes in a plank of wood at 600mm centres and shove 500mm length of reinforcement bar through. One side will get cast in and the other side will stick out read for the next pour. You sometimes have to cut the timber out but it'll work OK. You can even get fancy with slip bonds. But for domestic loading and with some acceptance of differential settlement (or which a build up above the slab) you could just pour them adjacent with no dowels. They should be level though - string lines or lasers are cheap and easy. Compacting with a bucket isn't an accepted method but again, would probably work well enough. Mind you hiring or buying a compactor is pretty cheap and easy so personally I'd try and mechanically compact it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted April 8 Author Share Posted April 8 (edited) Thanks for the detailed reply, the guy doing it Tim has done a slab before for a workshop but it did end up around 10mm high at the edges, I've read levelling slabs is a bit of an art form and a bit like plastering in that experience and know-how comes into it. Also they are only going to make big savings if the lorry can enter the cowshed and they can chute the concrete into the bay each time. But can a 25 tonne lorry go in there without causing damage, there is drainage and pocketed foundations going in aswell as the existing steel frame. Just wondering if that is really possible??? Edited April 8 by DreamingTheBuild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 You are asking good questions and seem to have a feel for what is good or bad. May I ask, is the 'build you are dreaming' , something like this? will all the MOT type 1 have to come out and be replaced with new??? No, unless it is mucky. I very much doubt that a farmer used Type 1 though. More likely something much cheaper, although it should be plenty to support a domestic floor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 On 18/03/2024 at 20:49, DreamingTheBuild said: The Restoration Couple Their page seems to be all over the place with many projects and shorts. Can you point me at the relevant part for this barn? If it's in multiple parts, then the first one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted April 8 Author Share Posted April 8 Thanks for the interest - my situation is it was something I was interested in about eight years ago or so, but at that time there was a lot of confusion over Class Q, I had seen a few concrete barns come up at auction and it piqued my interest. However time has moved on and I am in a conventional house now so my interest is somewhat academic. It was a coincidence really because I had been watching these guys run a DIY channel primarily based around woodwork, but one day they suddenly announced they were going to buy this farm and do a Class Q! Having done quite a lot on the planning side I offered to help with general advice but it turned out they just didn't have any interest in the subject and left it all to their PC (something I had strongly urged them not to do!). Anyway it ended up costing them a lot of money and time unfortunately but they did finally get full planning in early Feb. I know the channel looks a bit larger than life these days but I have seen all their apps so I can promise it is definitely real. The position now is the channel they operate is a bit more geared to 'lifestyle' than it used to be, originally this build was going to be more serious with design and planning talk but that all seems to have gone now. They have no time to answer questions ofcourse so I came back here hoping I could get some answers and also that it would benefit people considering a barn conversion, it's not often you see one in the flesh like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 (edited) On 18/03/2024 at 22:49, DreamingTheBuild said: Just thought I'd share this because the project is just starting, they got Class Q and now full pp at the start of Feb '24. Looks like a carbon copy of the barn I converted under Class Q, 7 years ago and live in now. At the time my LPA insisted the Class Q couldn't be used as a fallback for full planning and I was unwilling to be one of the first to challenge that view via Appeal. Full Planning is certainly the better option, to get away from the Class Q rules and restrictions, but still very happy with what I ended up with, it just could have cost a lot less. Shame they're not doing a blog somewhere, it would be nice to follow. Unfortunately the YT format doesn't work for me with this sort of project. 11 hours ago, DreamingTheBuild said: the chap now wants to self pour the foundation slab in six stages to keep costs down, he is proposing around 60sqm each time. The actual pour went pretty quick for me. 500 sqr m was in by 11:00 on the day we did it, so I'm not sure of the cost savings from doing it in smaller chunks, unless the couple really are planning to do it without any help. Edited April 8 by IanR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted April 9 Author Share Posted April 9 Hi Ian - I read the thread about the slab build up you contributed to and I could see it does look similar yes. I also get your comment about YT. The fallback position has changed a lot since a landmark case in 2018 I think, can't remember all the details right now but it was the High Court I think, I do know it involved a scheme of four houses which was backed by the council and the judge agreed that the planning officer was correct in his approach. Certainly it seems to have developed a lot since then but there is also a lot of context to it. For example if you are near housing that had planning approval ie post 1948 and the building is just near the red line then prospects for a development of a few houses are good. However if that is not the case and you are more 'open countryside' then the interpretation is still narrow, you are more likely looking at keeping the host building and doing minimal changes to the outside, an outer skin wall is ok but a roof in a different matieral is still a very close call. But anything inside is very relaxed so long as the shape is not being altered. This still presents challenges in a large square building. Their case was very interesting because a replacement roof was refused under Class Q and there is an appeal still pending, my best guess is I think the appeal will be upheld because the totality of all the changes meant that about 60% of the building was being replaced so it did look more of a new build than a conversion. However under planning a replacement roof in different matieral was allowed due to the existing roof being asbestos, which again seems like the right decision. So far costs have been £35K on planning, £6K on building regs drawings and £10K on a Structural Engineer. If I could help one person on here it is to say please do understand from the outset Class Q is not planning! It is a set of rules you have to qualify your application with, it is a fast track system and the onus is very much on you to prove you meet the rules. For that reason it is a very good idea to fully understand the rules yourself, it is a big risk relying on others to do it all for you. As for the concrete slab, they say they can save around £10K by doing it themselves. Must say it worries me they are sweating on £10K so early on, it also seems about the riskiest element in that if it fails after three years and they get damp then the the remedial costs will be huge. They have not discussed budget yet either, you have to balance saving say £50K on labour each year with the possible rise in matierals costs, especially when you factor in a lot of the big costs come near the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberrys Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 Dreamingthebuild...everything you type seems a little "asking for a friend"! And possibly just trying to plug your own YouTube channel. I doubt anyone would have a problem with this it just all sounds suspicious the way you are writing it and asking questions! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted April 9 Share Posted April 9 2 hours ago, Huckleberrys said: it just all sounds suspicious Some of it does seem that way. and the barn isn't their first time build by the looks of it either. So as they say "I'm Out!". For anyone getting the wrong impression from these videos: You need building control and an SE. An SE report for planning saying that the building can be converted is NOT saying that no upgrade is required. The building has been designed for cattle or tractors and has no factor of safety. Agricultural buildings do fall down, but commercial steel buildings don't. Something to think about lying in bed when the wind is howling, and the building is creaking, unless done properly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 12 hours ago, saveasteading said: So as they say "I'm Out!". Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted April 10 Author Share Posted April 10 21 hours ago, Huckleberrys said: Dreamingthebuild...everything you type seems a little "asking for a friend"! And possibly just trying to plug your own YouTube channel. I doubt anyone would have a problem with this it just all sounds suspicious the way you are writing it and asking questions! LOL I am not connected with them in any way, nor do I have a YouTube channel. As I said above, I thought there might be interest in seeing a live high spec conversion, they are looking at near passive house options. Also it followed on from the 'slab thread' in that is it covering a replacement slab plus repairs to the steel columns. I thought the amount of work needed to the steels would be relevant to people. My only interest is that I have followed these guys for some years, they are genuine, the build is real and genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted April 10 Author Share Posted April 10 (edited) 19 hours ago, saveasteading said: Some of it does seem that way. and the barn isn't their first time build by the looks of it either. So as they say "I'm Out!". For anyone getting the wrong impression from these videos: You need building control and an SE. An SE report for planning saying that the building can be converted is NOT saying that no upgrade is required. The building has been designed for cattle or tractors and has no factor of safety. Agricultural buildings do fall down, but commercial steel buildings don't. Something to think about lying in bed when the wind is howling, and the building is creaking, unless done properly. saveasteading - there is no 'wrong impression' from the videos. They have full planning. I have already explained they have paid £10K for SE input. You are correct that a Class Q report from an SE saying the building can be converted does not mean that you can just go ahead and do it, you have to dig some trial holes and often repair the steel from 1m down, which is what the videos cover. I don't quite know about the inspection process. They have an architect and an SE. The part I am not clear about is can the architect act as the inspector or do they have to appoint an approved inspector or the LABC??? They are building a timber frame inside to support the roof, I don't know how it all works exactly but this is why they are paying so much for SE input. Your thoughts are not wrong in principle but this is a real conversion build, yes it is complex which is why they have spent a lot of money getting to this stage. Edited April 10 by DreamingTheBuild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 44 minutes ago, DreamingTheBuild said: They have full planning. Apologies if this is answered in their youtube video somewhere, but if they have "full planning" then why are they dicking around with repairing steels etc? Just knock down the whole lot and start again. Go back to the drawing board and design something from first principles, rather than have to spend £££ on compromises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanR Posted April 10 Share Posted April 10 4 minutes ago, Tom said: Apologies if this is answered in their youtube video somewhere, but if they have "full planning" then why are they dicking around with repairing steels etc? Just knock down the whole lot and start again. Go back to the drawing board and design something from first principles, rather than have to spend £££ on compromises. I believe what is meant is that they have Planning Approved for a Change of Use Conversion, rather than the initial Class Q PD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamingTheBuild Posted April 12 Author Share Posted April 12 On 10/04/2024 at 08:26, Tom said: Apologies if this is answered in their youtube video somewhere, but if they have "full planning" then why are they dicking around with repairing steels etc? Just knock down the whole lot and start again. Go back to the drawing board and design something from first principles, rather than have to spend £££ on compromises. No problem, it is an interesting question infact. IanR is right in that it is a conversion of the existing building, using the Class Q fallback position. I think one reason is that they are in a very sensitive area as regards bats, all the rooflights have got to have integrated blinds that will shut automatically on a light senistive timer. I therefore think the explanation might be that a replacement building would have had to have been the same form given the light constraints. I also think that because they didn't ever learn about planning and left it all to others to do it for them they became worn out and confused about the process by the end. I don't know the full answer but suspect it was a combination of these two issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughF Posted April 13 Share Posted April 13 I know Tim well, I helped with the first stage steel column welding repairs (but wasn’t on camera, my mate David was)… He’s legit, his build is legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now