Copper or Plastic

[Mr Blobby]

After reading the various plumbing threads on here I expected our plumbing system would be a hep2o mainfold in the plant room and then a continuous run of plastic pipe from manifold to each fitting at the other end. 

 

I thought plastic pipes/hep2o was standard pratictice now so I was surprised when the plumber said he plans to install copper everywhere in our house with no plastic pipe anywhere.  Copper pipes at the UVC I expected but not copper everywhere else too. 

Using copper everywhere seems a bit, well, 1950s, and reminds me of creaking clanking pipes leaking heat.  Is there anything wrong with using copper?  What about noise and heat and hidded joins?

 

Should I insist (or not) on plastic/hep20 and why? 

Edited March 8 by Mr Blobby

[nod]

Copper is good 

Most of the sites use plastic Partly for speed and also theft 

[Super_Paulie]

nothing wrong with it at all, except the price will surely be way more. Install time, joints, all in excess of a pipe from A to B with no joins. Only copper in my system are the parts on show (tails) and parts where i needed compression (tank, manifold).

I would personally insist on continuous unbroken runs of plastic if i was getting someone in.

[Mr Blobby]

9 minutes ago, Super_Paulie said:

I would personally insist on continuous unbroken runs of plastic if i was getting someone in

 

That's what I thought.  When I raised the question of plastic pipe said plumber also talked about speedfit, which some on here say to avoid and use hep instead.

 

Plumber's objection to plastic seems to be it needs more clips to support it than copper.  Which seems a pretty lazy objection to me. 

 

What about expansion noise of copper? Is that a thing to be concerned about?  What about heat loss and condensation?

[Mr Punter]

Running copper through joists is tricky.  Most builds use chipboard upper floor decking which is fitted before first fix plumb and electrics.  If you have a long run of copper pipe perpendicular to joists you will have issues.

[sharpener]

1 hour ago, Mr Blobby said:

I expected our plumbing system would be a hep2o mainfold in the plant room and then a continuous run of plastic pipe from manifold to each fitting at the other end. 

 

Doesn't have to be like this, works OK with conventional tree/branch config also.

 

But it sounds like yr plumber is new to plastic, mine treated it like copper and used pressfit elbows everywhere rather than using bend formers, must have cost them (?me) a fortune in extra fittings.

 

Yes where they are on show I have used copper drops for perfect straightness and fewer clips, but plastic everywhere else under floor and in garage.

 

 

Personally I don't like JG Speedfit, my rainwater system had a lot of them in it, early ones were not v secure unless pulled hard tight, now they have locking clips I think.

 

Polypipe fittings much better, I thought Screwfix no longer stocked them but I see they are back again although much more expensive. Haven't used Hep2O but they do look neat and less agricultural.

 

[Mr Blobby]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Running copper through joists is tricky.  Most builds use chipboard upper floor decking which is fitted before first fix plumb and electrics.  If you have a long run of copper pipe perpendicular to joists you will have issues.

 

We have hollowcore slabs so pipes will run in the void under that.  I don't think there will be any joists to run through. 

 

What's the downside to copper pipe apart from cost.  Noise? corrosion?  Leaks in joints hidden away? 

 

[Mr Punter]

I don't think there is much in the cost.

[joe90]

I am a Plastic convert (unless where “required”). Manifold and continuous runs are far better IMO. This should have been specified by the customer.

Edited March 8 by joe90

[Mr Blobby]

I definetly want a manifold in the plant room and individual supplies to each output.

That means a lot of pipe. 

So what should I do?  hep or copper? 

I don't think my builder or plumber have ever had a customer express a preference before 🙄and I think they don't like it 😬

[JohnMo]

3 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

definetly want a manifold in the plant room and individual supplies to each output

I did a manifold and then one supply of hot and cold to each wet room in 15mm, then branched once in the wet room.

[Mr Blobby]

10 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I am a Plastic convert (unless where “required”). Manifold and continuous runs are far better IMO. This should have been specified by the customer.

 

We actually gave the plumber a plumbing diagram from the M and E consultant with manifold and pre-insulated(!) pipes specified from manifold around house in variying diameters.  I suspect the plumber has not looked at it.  The plumber has not objected to the proposed manifold but does his preference for copper suggest he expects to install a branch system without a manifold? 

 

Stupid question but when installing a manifold then is it always plastic from there, or do people install manifolds in a copper only system too?

 

 

Edited March 8 by Mr Blobby

[Mr Blobby]

1 minute ago, JohnMo said:

I did a manifold and then one supply of hot and cold to each wet room in 15mm, then branched once in the wet room.

 

In plastic pipe from manifold?

 

[SimonD]

2 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

Stupid question but when installing a manifold then is it always plastic from there, or do people install manifolds in a copper only system too?

 

It depends on the manifold. Off the shelf manifolds come with adapters for various types of pipe and mostly of the plastic types and MLCP, for example. But there's nothing to say that you can't use copper, more a question of why would you use copper when you can buy plastic pipe cheaply and run very long runs without any joints. By the time you've plumbed a house using short lengths of copper and any of the required fittings it'll cost a fortune more than the plastic version and have more risks of leaks.

 

Like so many others, I'm now a fan of plastic pipes and manfolds, although unlike most on here, I made the manifolds myself in copper.

 

I would be very wary of a plumber who comes in an throws away a design and then insists on a type of installation without consulting you first. Actually, I'd show them the door.

[JohnMo]

Just now, Mr Blobby said:

 

In plastic pipe from manifold?

 

I did a single hot run of plastic from plant room (UVC) to utility room where cold manifold is (very central location), located both manifolds there, then plastic to each wet room. Wetrooms are a mix of plastic and copper.

 

Cold pipe was in conduit under the floor insulation cast into the concrete slab. Hot is in the roof insulation.

 

 

[sharpener]

8 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

We actually gave the plumber a plumbing diagram from the M and E consultant with manifold and pre-insulated(!) pipes specified

 

14 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

I don't think my builder or plumber have ever had a customer express a preference before 🙄and I think they don't like it 😬

 

Well he may not like it but if he had the spec from an M and E consultant to quote against then no question that is what he should be fitting. OTOH I sense this may not go well.

[joe90]

Yes, you are the customer with a spec so he should quote/provide according to your wishes, he may well be a dinasour that does not like change but your paying for what you want. 

[Mr Blobby]

21 minutes ago, SimonD said:

why would you use copper when you can buy plastic pipe cheaply and run very long runs without any joints. By the time you've plumbed a house using short lengths of copper and any of the required fittings it'll cost a fortune more than the plastic version and have more risks of leaks.

 

These were my thoughts exactly. 

 

5 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Yes, you are the customer with a spec so he should quote/provide according to your wishes, he may well be a dinasour that does not like change but your paying for what you want. 

 

He's actually about 20 years younger than me so I'm surprised he's such a copperphile.  I think I'll be insisting on plastic pipe with hep20 from manifold to wet rooms.  Copper + manifold seems daft and I'm defo heving a manifold in the plant room next to the UVC.

 

[joe90]

Plus i am a hep2o user, best kit by far IMO. Only downside of plastic is scratches that can lead to leaks, if your plumber is new to plastic make sure he is aware NO scratches where fittings are used. (I used to tape an oversized piece of pipe over the first 6” of pipe before feeding thro gaps/holes 👍).

Edited March 8 by joe90

[Mr Blobby]

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Plus i am a hep2o user, best kit by far IMO.

 

Did you insulate the pipe?

 

How to fix to bottom of hollow core slab?  Maybe long piece of timber with thunderbolt screws then individual pipe clips at 200 centres. (thinking out loud here)

Edited March 8 by Mr Blobby

[joe90]

Just now, Mr Blobby said:

Did you insulate the pipe?

Only next to DHW tank as required by building regs but I did insulate hot pipe to kitchen tap because of the frequency of use (and I had spare insulation).

3 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

How to fix to bottom of hollow core slab?  Maybe long piece of timber with thunderbolt screws then individual pipe clips at 200 centres. (thinking out loud here)

I did not have a slab but that sound reasonable.

[JohnMo]

4 minutes ago, Mr Blobby said:

defo heving a manifold in the plant room next to the UVC.

Make sure you locate it below the top of the cylinder so the hot pipe comes out of top of the cylinder and then downwards as soon as possible for at least 150mm. This will form a heat trap and stop a circular flow of heat within the pipe, which slowly make the cylinder cooler. 

 

[SimonD]

6 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Plus i am a hep2o user, best kit by far IMO.

 

Maybe we should start another debate about which fittings? 😉 I'm personally not a fan of Hep20 - my first ever one I used on an installation leaked on the mains to UVC. I've since had another leak with one too! And then I hate the demount tool with a vengeance especially when some (expletive deleted) has previously installed them in a tight space with poor access (never me of course).  My preference is Polypipe followed by the most despised brand on Buildhub which is Speedfit 😁

[Huckleberrys]

Don't knock the copper. I am a plumber and will use both (polypipe plastic). More and more installers I speak to seem to be going back to copper for more jobs...it's just better. Soldered or press fit fittings are so much safer than push fit plastic...and running nice neat copper pipework looks the business and is a much more professional job. Yes it may take slightly longer but there is not much difference at all in cost but I believe you will get a much higher quality, less leak prone job done in copper. 

[joe90]

9 minutes ago, Huckleberrys said:

running nice neat copper pipework looks the business

Fine when it is on show but runs under floors with no sharp bends and no joins (single runs) are my go to.

37 minutes ago, SimonD said:

Maybe we should start another debate about which fittings?

I can only speak as I find, @Nickfromwales converted me to hep2o, I am sure people have other preferences.