Thorfun Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 i've tried to Google this but have failed. is there a difference between Timberlok screws and coach screws? or is 'Timberlok' just a brand name for a coach screw and used unilaterally like 'Hoover' or 'Celotex'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Well they are what they are. Suggest coach screws are often bigger flat square head and thicker diameter and thread nd often used with washers under the head, Timberlok are a bit countersunk and therefore not used with washers. I think timberlok sometimes has coatings to resist the corrosion effects of some wood. I've used both though to hold big-assed bits of wood together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 49 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said: Well they are what they are. Suggest coach screws are often bigger flat square head and thicker diameter and thread nd often used with washers under the head, Timberlok are a bit countersunk and therefore not used with washers. I think timberlok sometimes has coatings to resist the corrosion effects of some wood. I've used both though to hold big-assed bits of wood together. thanks. i'll be fixing aluminium U-profile channelling for an internal frameless glass balustrade. a chippie mate is saying to use coach screws and a builder mate is saying to use Timberloks! hence the research. i have some M10 x 100mm coach screws and will need to use washers and it's internal so i think i'll be fine with the coach screws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 I can't quite imagine the exact set-up, I'm sure an SE can calculate the exact loads, pull-out forces etc, if safety critical. If not, think I would take the chippie's advice, as they often have a good intuitive sense of screw forces built up over the years. Bolts would probably have better holding but you might not have the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Just now, Alan Ambrose said: I can't quite imagine the exact set-up, I'm sure an SE can calculate the exact loads, pull-out forces etc, if safety critical. If not, think I would take the chippie's advice, as they often have a good intuitive sense of screw forces built up over the years. Bolts would probably have better holding but you might not have the opportunity. definitely no opportunity for bolts! think i will just go with the chippie's recommendation. thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Looks to me as if Timberlok is specifically for joining wood to wood, hence the long shank. The area of thread is what resists pullout and these have much less than a coach screw. They are not interchangeable. Both will have rated pullout strengths. The head size may also matter. Balutrade supports and fixings have to withstand very high forces from pushing out at the top, and guessing isn't a safe option. It needs prove detailing (balustrade manufacturer) or calculation (SE). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 36 minutes ago, saveasteading said: Balutrade supports and fixings have to withstand very high forces from pushing out at the top, and guessing isn't a safe option. Agreed. People have died when balustrades have given way. This must be specified by the balustrade company or a structural engineer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 I would vote for coach screws with washers BUT follow the guidance of the manufacturers of the balustrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 40 minutes ago, joe90 said: I would vote for coach screws with washers BUT follow the guidance of the manufacturers of the balustrade. Sad thing is that no balustrade manufacturer that I can find calculate for fitting in to timber. They only test in to concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, Thorfun said: Sad thing is that no balustrade manufacturer that I can find calculate for fitting in to timber. They only test in to concrete. Yes there is someone else who posted recently on the same subject. Here it is... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Are you sure you want to use either? Both have exposed heads rather than countersunk if that matters. Timberlok and similar tend to have thinner shank and sharper threads. Coach screws tend to be fatter and more crudely manufactured. I'd suggest drilling a pilot hole with either. Make a test on scrap wood to avoid shearing off a bolt in the actual workpiece. Could go into screwfix or toolstation and ask to see some. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 @Thorfun what’s the makeup of the wall you’re fixing too ?,(depth of timber, insulation?’ some timberlok screws only have threads at the end, you need thread the whole depth of the wood IMO to give max security, also how much room in the channel do you have after the glass is fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 (edited) 17 minutes ago, joe90 said: @Thorfun what’s the makeup of the wall you’re fixing too ?,(depth of timber, insulation?’ some timberlok screws only have threads at the end, you need thread the whole depth of the wood IMO to give max security, also how much room in the channel do you have after the glass is fixed? Fixing straight down in to 90mm x 304mm glulams. Was planning on using M10 x 100mm coach screws. I’m not near the profile at the moment but the fixing holes are approximately 300mm apart. plenty of room above the fixing hole for a hex head. here’s the tech spec if you’re interested Edited February 26 by Thorfun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Edit: Fixed straight down through 22mm chipboard flooring in to the timbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Additional information: red lines show where the channels will be and the timbers they’re going in to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Here’s how it is with the 22mm chipboard flooring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) Right, if it were me (being OCD) I would use https://www.toolstation.com/exterior-coach-screw/p13122 which are 150mm, or even longer, https://www.fastbuildsupplies.co.uk/27182-m10-x-200-hex-head-coach-screw-bz you might as well go as deep as possible, lots of leverage IMO. Edited February 26 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: Right, if it were me (being OCD) I would use https://www.toolstation.com/exterior-coach-screw/p13122 which are 150mm, or even longer, you might as well go as deep as possible, lots of leverage IMO. I do have some 160mm M12 coach screws left over from fitting our external brise soleil. I was originally going to use those but the chippie said probably excessive and had potential concerns about the amount in to the wood and structural integrity of the timbers. But I was thinking 160mm is only just over 50% of the depth so still plenty of depth below them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Interesting that they don’t show a fixing to timber in the blurb! Timber will have a little more give than steel or concrete so I would go overboard with depth, (peace of mind) m12 even better 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 5 minutes ago, joe90 said: Interesting that they don’t show a fixing to timber in the blurb! Timber will have a little more give than steel or concrete so I would go overboard with depth, (peace of mind) m12 even better 🤷♂️ No balustrade suppliers I can find seem to certify for timber, they only test in concrete. 😢 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 If I’m too worried then I’ll see how much an SE will charge to do the calculations. It’s just frustrating that manufacturers don’t test. Don’t suppose any SEs on here would be willing to do some calculations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) Threaded rod right through the glulam 🤣🤣🤣🤣 (I said I was OCD) 🤷♂️ Edited February 26 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 Just now, joe90 said: Threaded rod right through the glulam 🤣🤣🤣🤣 (I said I was OCD 🤷♂️ That’d do it and if I’d thought of it 6 months ago before plasterboard and plastering I might have done just that! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 I don't like cantilevered glass balustrade. You can't lean on it comfortably or hold it. I prefer a stainless handrail on top. Funny, with timber handrail and balustrade, the BCO will never ask for calcs or BBA certs. At most they may see if it wobbles or deflects excessively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Thorfun said: structural integrity of the timbers. Don't worry about that. Timber is good for this, and Glulam especially so. More important is to drill a very neat hole so that the thread bites into the sides of it. Then when you are screwing it in, you are cutting h threads into the timber and not trying to force it. I cant recall calculating for balustrades. I did though for a basketball net fixed into a timber backing. Think 2 x 2m athletes hanging from it. Coach screws worked fine. I got a couple of hefty guys to hang off it too. The other weakness might be the screw head bursting through an aluminium frame that is being forced. Hence big heads and washers will spread the load. The photos are great help as well as interesting. Very tidy. Is the nearer glulam spiked into the adjacent floor to give it stability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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