SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 2 minutes ago, Dillsue said: Battery production has massive environmental impact Is it any worse than manufacturing ICE vehicles once the "learning curve" is taken into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Everything I've read says battery manufacture produces significant emissions. I don't believe the raw material mining is particularly environmentally friendly either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, Dillsue said: Everything I've read says battery manufacture produces significant emissions. I don't believe the raw material mining is particularly environmentally friendly either. That is partly because it is a new industry that is using old manufacturing processes, that is the learning curve. If you take just the cells, over the last few years the capacity had doubled, as has the longevity. So even using the same numbers from a decade ago (about 100 kg CO2e per kWh), that is already down to 25 kg CO2e kWh. Now take just an ordinary car that does 40 MPG has CO2e emissions of 150g/mile. If the 1 kWh of car battery storage can last at least 100,000 miles, and there is no reason to assume they cannot, then that is 0.01 kg CO2e/mile. An insignificant amount. Generation emission need to be added to the EV emissions, say 50g/mile. The normal car is a lot worse. Hard as it seems, people like to think that EVs take more energy to produce, they do a bit, but it is rapidly falling as we build more. Burning hydrocarbons is not the long term solution. It is way too easy to think up spurious reasons to do, or not do, something, but a few minutes with a calculator can show a much better picture. This is from 4 years ago. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51977625 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Feet Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Dillsue said: Everything I've read says battery manufacture produces significant emissions. I don't believe the raw material mining is particularly environmentally friendly either. There's a lot of memes and such going around where people seem suspiciously motivated to push this narrative. I wish more people would read this excellent series of articles by the Guardian - EV mythbusters. Here's the one on mineral mining. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 8 minutes ago, Square Feet said: Here's the one on mineral mining. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals Good article. 9 minutes ago, Square Feet said: There's a lot of memes and such going around where people seem suspiciously motivated to push this narrative Yes. I am not a facebook user, but some at work are. There was an article being pushed about Robert Preston doing something wrong on a broadcast. Now I quite like old Robert, so asked my work mate to open it. It opened up in a new window and was about Jeremy Paxman saying something wrong on telly (He has near enough been on sick leave for a few years now). A bit more digging and the same text, but with different names appeared about 'famous people'. I find it hard to believe that people fall for this, but they do. I cannot see what it achieves, except to put an air of suspicion, onto all news articles. The writer G K Chesterton said "When man stops believing in God, we will believe anything" Except he never said it. https://www.chesterton.org/ceases-to-worship/ I never really understood the 'Comprehension' aspect of our English lessons at school. The 'rewrite, using your own words, the following passage' used to bring me out in a cold sweat. Why take a classic bit writing, and ruin it, when a Dickens or Orwell writes something, that is about as good as it gets, why (expletive deleted) about with it to get an 'O' Level. I don't see any articles on Facebook that Nasa Scientist or Einstein have proved that 1 = 2 but they are keeping it a secret, even though one is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 I am not a social media user either and think there are a lot of people out there with not enough to do and just love stirring shit. I know people that cannot even put their phone down and think they would panic if it stopped working. I think banning mobiles in school (with obvious exceptions for emergencies) is the way to go, the young have to understand that the world is not going to stop if they cannot gossip every few seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Feet Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 6 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Good article. It's a good series - check the others out too if you have time. I love my EV but find myself constantly having to defend them from what I can only see as a twisted narrative. The right-wing climate denying lobby love to punt this sort of nonsense and the petrol-head Top Gear folk don't help either. They punted the idea that EVs somehow diminished masculinity and were some sort of joke and went out of their way to prove this by driving an EV round and around a town till it ran out of juice so it had to be pushed to the charger. Ha ha, how ridiculous these EVs are. I feel like I need to do my bit - not only to help towards limiting climate change but also for these wee kids that get asthma from living near main roads. With a range of 70-80 miles my 2013 EV isn't the most convenient vehicle in the world, especially for long journeys but it's fine for local use, which is where many people are exposed to emissions. Given that there's no road tax on EVs and they can be charged for 7p per Kwh overnight and also possibly make you money via a V2G connection, it doesn't seem daft to keep an old EV for shorter journeys. The new ones have 250-300 miles of range, which at 3-4 hours of motorway driving is about my personal 'toilet range' these days anyway. By the time you have stopped at a motorway services for the lavvy and a coffee your car will be topped up again and ready to roll onwards. I don't see that as an inconvenience at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Feet Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 6 minutes ago, joe90 said: I think banning mobiles in school (with obvious exceptions for emergencies) is the way to go, the young have to understand that the world is not going to stop if they cannot gossip every few seconds. Mobiles are banned already from use in schools. The headteachers have taken care of that. It's the out-of-school social media abuse issue that is the problem. This new legislation is unneeded and won't tackle the main issues. It's just more hollow populist dross from the Westminster govt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 2 minutes ago, Square Feet said: The new ones have 250-300 miles of range, which at 3-4 hours of motorway driving is about my personal 'toilet range' these days anyway I did that yesterday without stopping. Then, when I was starting to relax as I only had 10 quick miles to do, I had a 20 mile detour, adding nearly an hour to the journey. I hope the A30 roadworks finish soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Square Feet said: Mobiles are banned already from use in schools. I don’t believe this has been the case otherwise the gov would not be discussing in parliament bringing in guide lines. I think some schools do but there is no consistency. Just noticed this… New mobile phones in schools guidance issued today (19 February 2024) backs headteachers in prohibiting the use of mobile phones throughout the school day, including at break times. Many schools around the country are already prohibiting mobile phone use with great results. Edited February 22 by joe90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Feet Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 The ironic thing is that EVs have absolutely ridiculous levels of torque. First time I floored it with my son in the car he nearly shat himself. 😂 If the boy-racer crowd ever find out how powerful these cars are we will be in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Feet Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, joe90 said: I don’t believe this is the case otherwise the gov would not be discussing in parliament bringing in guide lines. I think some schools do but there is no consistency They are bringing it in cos it is an easy win for them. It sounds like a jolly sensible policy but from what I was hearing (headteachers being interviewed last week) it really misses the mark. There's absolutely no way pupils will be allowed to sit there on their phones in lessons. That just doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 24 minutes ago, Square Feet said: If the boy-racer crowd ever find out how powerful these cars are we will be in trouble. I am more worried about pensioners that trade in a Vauxhall Moka diesel for a Model 3. The use of 28 minutes ago, joe90 said: phones 26 minutes ago, joe90 said: guidance 27 minutes ago, joe90 said: use Are the usual unclear legislation terms. It was a problem 25 years ago, and will be a problem in a decades time. Much easier to ban children and make the teacher's life easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 3 hours ago, Dillsue said: If you are wanting a grid connection then why the obvious objection to helping society run a serviceable supply? Sadly there are people out there, perhaps the majority, who care only about themselves and think that any problem that isn't specifically theirs is, by definition, the responsibility of some else. The odd thing is many of those people apparently don't care about their children or grandchildren either, because if they did then they would be a lot more proactive in relation to climate change. That's why governments have to create artificial incentives and compulsion to make the changes that society needs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 15 minutes ago, JamesPa said: That's why governments have to create artificial incentives I don’t think the incentives are artificial, grant towards heat pumps because of people power wanting to tackle climate change. 17 minutes ago, JamesPa said: and compulsion to make the changes that society needs I think it’s the changes the majority of the public wants (stop burning fossil fuels) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 (edited) 6 minutes ago, joe90 said: 25 minutes ago, JamesPa said: That's why governments have to create artificial incentives I don’t think the incentives are artificial, grant towards heat pumps because of people power wanting to tackle climate change. Artificial in the sense market-distorting 6 minutes ago, joe90 said: 25 minutes ago, JamesPa said: and compulsion to make the changes that society needs I think it’s the changes the majority of the public wants (stop burning fossil fuels) In principle the majority may want this, but in many, probably most cases, only if it doesn't cause them any personal inconvenience or additional cost (and never mind about the (grand) children. Edited February 22 by JamesPa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 5 minutes ago, JamesPa said: Artificial in the sense market-distorting For the greater benefit of everyone and new marketing opportunities opening up 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 9 minutes ago, JamesPa said: In principle the majority may want this, but in many, probably most cases, only if it doesn't cause them any personal inconvenience or additional cost (and never mind about the (grand) children. Which is why grants are available to help some make the changes they would like to make, yes I agree there are those that can’t make those changes but I believe the old ways (burning stuff and lack of insulation) will become a monetary burden so change is financially beneficial. This will never happen overnight but things are changing and for the better I believe. For example I still drive a diesel car and is fairly economical but the cost of a new EV is beyond me and the scrapping of a serviceable car has hidden costs, yes I will change at some point when things move on (but being a “petrol head” I hope a clean ICE fuel can be found 🤣) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 31 minutes ago, joe90 said: but being a “petrol head” I hope a clean ICE fuel can be found Two things. ICE cars are noisy (think kids with fat exhausts, over accelerating and braking) They create local air pollution. Modern EVs will be legislated to stop that behaviour via GPS positioning and associated geo-fencing control. We already have developed suitable lower CO2e liquid fuels, but we won't be pumping them in like gasoline or diesel, they will probably be interchangeable canisters, especially if ammonia or liquid hydrogen is used, that recover the stored energy via a fuel cell. What we won't be doing is burning fuels in cars, that is mid 1750's technology that should have died out in the early 1900s. The original Model T was designed to run on crop derived alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, SteamyTea said: ICE cars are noisy So you don’t need noise generators to let the public know they are there 🤷♂️ 3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: think kids with fat exhausts, Easily sorted with noise level rules, that’s just nuisance. 6 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: They create local air pollution. Not if clean fuels can be found and burning nitrogen I believe only produces water. 8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: probably Yes, we don’t know what we don’t know, yet. 10 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: that is mid 1750's technology that should have died out in the early 1900s. Then why are you still driving an ICE (oh because you won’t get to your mums in one hit 🙄) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 minute ago, joe90 said: So you don’t need noise generators to let the public know they are there Most ICEs are pretty quiet these days, why people get run over in car parks. 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: Easily sorted with noise level rules We have them, they are unenforceable. 2 minutes ago, joe90 said: Not if clean fuels can be found If it is a carbon based eFuel, it produces the same as any other carbon based fuel. Ammonia, when burnt, produces NOX, but not CO2. 4 minutes ago, joe90 said: Yes, we don’t know what we don’t know, yet. Well we have solutions, just need to start implementing them. Hydrogen as a transport fuel has basically failed, only a handful of filling points left, even James May has sold his second Toyota Mirai, and he was an evangelist for hydrogen. 7 minutes ago, joe90 said: Then why are you still driving an ICE (oh because you won’t get to your mums in one hit Basically yes, and driving up there every couple of weeks has burnt though (literally) several thousand quid, more than enough to buy a decent second hand EV. But then I did not expect, back in October 2021, that I would still have a Mother (in a care home that costs more than a Model S every year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 4 hours ago, Square Feet said: There's a lot of memes and such going around where people seem suspiciously motivated to push this narrative. I wish more people would read this excellent series of articles by the Guardian - EV mythbusters. Here's the one on mineral mining. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals The guardians mining article finishes with- "The verdict The data we have leaves little doubt that resource extraction will be significantly lower for electric cars compared with their petrol or diesel equivalents as recycling increases. And neither do the green credentials of electric cars absolve the buyers of battery minerals of responsibility for abuses in the supply chain. Dummett said he hopes the mining industy will “use this moment to reform itself”" A quick search on EV battery recycling found this site-https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-well-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-be-recycled which includes this- "However, as the world transitions from gas-powered to electric vehicles, the demand for these materials will far outpace the supply from recycling, so mining metals such as cobalt will still be necessary" Seems to me that the guardians debunking article relies on significant recycling which doesn't happen to any significant degree now and is unlikely to happen for a while until there's much larger numbers of old batteries to be recycled. That article may be valid in a decade or two but doesn't seem to be just now?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 36 minutes ago, Dillsue said: cobalt Does not need to be used in the latest generation of batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crofter Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 There is very little battery recycling happening just now because a) there just aren't that many EVs yet b) they're not at scrapping age yet c) the batteries can be reused in static storage It will eventually become a major industry in its own right. Those working on it are confident they can achieve a 97% recycling rate. Re cobalt, this is already in use in large quantities as a catalyst for fossil fuel refining. Early EVs did need a fair amount of it in the NMC batteries. However newer NMC batteries use substantially less, and more and more manufacturers are switching to LFP which does not contain any cobalt at all (and also has longer lifespan and almost zero chance of thermal runaway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 1 hour ago, Crofter said: There is very little battery recycling happening just now because A lot of batteries are being repurposed into static storage, and anyway, it is not as if vehicles batteries are being dumped into landfill, most will be stored for later recycling. I think the disposal problem is greater in other area. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CDP-2022-0216/CDP-2022-0216.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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