Fun and joy with a thermal camera, part I: Attic

[Garald]

I just got an inexpensive thermal camera (HIKMicro E01, from Amazon) - and it's -2C outside, so I just had a load of fun. Here is a series of thermal pictures, with "normal" pictures of the same places to go with them, and some comments. Please tell me if I am misinterpreting things or if I am missing clues.

 

(For context: I am at the end of a renovation carried out by what I believe to be a competent contractor, with plenty of help from here.)

 

My aims right now are:

- to evaluate the work that has been done

- to see what I can have fixed easily 

- to know what issues remain that could be fixed in a further renovation a few years down the road.

 

All right, let us get started. I apologize for the mess - I am still unpacking and assembling a few things.

 

Keep in mind that the temperature->color mapping is different in each picture.

 

1. Attic entrance

 

 

You can see the metal instruction in the wall insulation as clear as in an X-ray. (I believe I've posted pictures here of when it was being installed.) Is this a problem?

 

2. Home office 1

 

 

 

 

 

Skylights: i wanted many, and thought of heat loss as a worthwhile sacrifice. At least they are new (U=1.1-1.3 or thereabouts).

 

Something funny seems to be happening in the edges and corners.

 

 

This seems all right, but...

 

 

 

A corner here seems very cold.

 

 

Again:

- the bit of ceiling immediately next to the wooden beams sems cold,

- more seriously, the short walls are cold, where not covered by bookcases. The obvious solution is more bookcases. (I think somebody here said we were going way off a tangent when we started discussing the thermal properties of bookcases, but apparently they are real.) If there has to be an air gap of 2 to 3cm, that's actually better. However, I would need to let the electricity sockets show through the back, and I don't know how to do that (without calling a carpenter).

 

3. Bathroom

 

 

I have nothing to say on the bathroom, save what I've already said - fairly cold short walls (and I would have expected the skylights' frames to be less cold: these are new skylights).  Maybe others can find things to remark upon?

 

4. Second home-office/bedroom

 

One of the skylights is old (with a wooden frame), from before the renovation, and it shows.

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by Garald

[Garald]

For the record, what is behind the low walls (called "short walls" in the above - I was falling asleep) is blown-in cellulose. I thought the R there would be at least as high as in the orher walls in the house (and, in particular, the other walls in the attic, where there is a few cm of cellulose plus a reflecting insulator). That's why I am surprised the low walls are colder.

Edited January 10 by Garald

[ProDave]

Can you explain the short walls more?

 

Are these essentially the top of the outside walls of the house with the roof sitting on top of them?  Or does the roof slope right down to floor level and these are partition walls with a triangle corner of loft space behind them?

 

Could it be the blown in celulous has slumped, or was never filled completely so there are voids at the top.

 

Overall I don't think it looks bad.

[Andehh]

Building houses is not really a zero sum game, you're never going to get it perfect without extensive time, money, stress & micro management throughout the build...and corners (!) will inevitably be cut & missed. There is also the law of diminishing returns over practical vs cost effective vs end result.

 

These cold snaps have made me realise we have sizable thermal bridging along a flush sliding/patio door in the kitchen.... 8m worth (!) which is really annoying because I was fastidious throughout at trying to catch everything, but work travel meant I was away when they screeded the kitchen area & didn't ask them to install some insulation on the inside of the frame prior to screeding.......but.....I was there to suggest dozens & dozens of other things to boost air tightness/insulation above & beyond default, and I caught dozens more that  tweaks improved it. That gives me the comfort we are multiples more improved in quality of build then your average new build, and with upgrading insulation & air tightness throughout, that multiplies it again,....and Ill never be disappointed with ''significantly above average'' even if we aren't at the extremes of the top end!

 

One thing I'm not doing though, is buying a thermal camera.....because that WILL drive me insane! Ignorance is bliss, and with global warming.... meh, we wont need any heating within the next few years!  

 

 

[Garald]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Can you explain the short walls more?

 

Are these essentially the top of the outside walls of the house with the roof sitting on top of them?  Or does the roof slope right down to floor level and these are partition walls with a triangle corner of loft space behind them?

 

The latter.

 

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

 

Could it be the blown in celulous has slumped, or was never filled completely so there are voids at the top.

 

 

Right - shouldn't I talk to the contractor about it? Is it normal for these short walls to be colder than the rest?

[Garald]

Just double-checked - the short walls are colder at the top than at the bottom, and that would seem to suggest that the blown-in cellulose has slumped, or that not enough was filled in. On the other hand, it's also the case that there necessarily has to be less cellulose near the top (that's how triangles work!).

 

What to do? I can think of two options:

- Take this up with the contractor, getting into a fight in the hope he reopens the short walls and puts in more cellulose?
- Inform the contractor (in case he can think of an easy fix) and put on thermal wallpaper (but is that a scam?).

[Conor]

The cold lines on the roof, dwarf wall junctions, and around the reveals will be the timbers, higher thermal conductivity that the filled void. Not much you can do about that other than fitting insulated plasterboard, at a large cost, inconvenience and looks like you can ill afford a loss of headroom.

Edited January 10 by Conor

[Garald]

I am trying to get hold of the contractor to demand an explanation in the friendliest of ways. He may just not have blown enough cellulose.

 

On what I can do:

(a) What I am already doing, viz., fill the low walls with book cases. It will be tricky to fill some spaces without made-to-measure bookcases, which can be expensive, though; I'll also need access to the electricity sockets in the wall.

(b) (this just occured to me) cork is a good insulator (it has about the same conductivity as rockwool) and is considered to be decorative by some. It's also easy to cut and easy to glue to the wall, I take. I could try to cover all the bits that are not covered by bookcases with cork instead. I could even line the whole of the short walls with cork (the cost would not be nothing, but since the walls are low this is not prohibitive). A 2cm-thick cork board is not nothing - that's 0.5 in added R value.

 

Is cork safe enough in case of fire? (I see cork products are rated E - that would be fine inside a wall cavity, behind a fire-proof panel.) How does it compare to, say, books? More importantly - is it safe to breathe in the long term? (No fibrous material really is, however "natural", is it?)

 

[Garald]

It is also possible that the side walls are not actually that poorly insulated, and that they are cold simply because they get no direct light. (All light in the attic comes from skylights.)

[Garald]

See, e.g., https://www.amazon.fr/Italfrom-isolation-thermique-acoustique-différentes/dp/B08MTD16G6/ref=sr_1_45?crid=1IGDIJRFCAN33&keywords=liege+30mm&qid=1705504943&sprefix=%2Caps%2C116&sr=8-45&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.49fccda8-a887-4188-817b-b9a64bb30e43

 

or 

https://biosughero.it/gb/cork-s-insulating-wall-cladding/989-52881-cork-panel-biocork-thickness-from-2-to-20-cm.html#/1002-spessore_isolanti-thickness_4_cm_pack_of_4_sq_m

[Iceverge]

If you are concerned about the cellulose how do you propose to check non destructively?

 

Is it worth the effort? 

 

 

[Garald]

2 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

If you are concerned about the cellulose how do you propose to check non destructively?

 

Is it worth the effort? 

 

 

Right, I don't have a way to check non-destructively; I'd have to convince the contractor (since he would know how to take apart the panels while causing minimal damage).

On whether it's worth the effort: I wonder whether there is a way to check that the insulation is indeed defective. It could be that the low walls are cold simply because they are always in the shadow (though the fact that their top parts are colder than their bottom parts makes me suspicious).

[Garald]

Of course cork panels will help regardless of whether the insulation is disappointing - adding +1 to the R is hardly a bad idea - but they are not cheap (just a little less expensive than I had feared).

[TonyT]

I doubt the contractor will be interested.

you did some work he did some work, if you haven’t paid in full that’s a bit different as you have some leverage 

 

[Garald]

I've just finished paying, unfortunately. He has fixed his own (minor) mistakes for free (with some grumbling). He's eager to put this proyect behind him, however, as it has run way overtime (mainly because of the incompetence of someone who is neither him or me).

[TonyT]

I doubt he’s coming back.

 

if you haven’t held back a retention payment, best put efforts into someone else it will be more productive 

[Garald]

Right - I agree. I'll let him now anyhow. I'll be happy enough if he finally sends me some missing documents that I need in order to get some promised state subsidies for improving energy efficiency. (He's actually not shy about doing extra physical work, but getting paperwork from him is like pulling teeth; we all have our strengths and weakenesses....)

[Iceverge]

There may have been some slimpjg of the cellulose. Can you describe the build up? Is it behind the plasterboard or a membrane too? 

[Garald]

I can ask the contractor the next time I manage to get hold on him. Here are some pictures and a video he sent me at the time of the build.  One moment...

Edited January 19 by Garald

[Garald]

[Iceverge]

Looks like it's just behind the plasterboard which is fine 

 

Cut a 80 X 20mm hole horizontally near the top of the wall in the plasterboard. 

 

If you can't see any cellulose shove your phone in with the video and flashlight on and have a look.  

 

JUST DON'T DROP YOUR PHONE!!!!!!!

[Garald]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

Looks like it's just behind the plasterboard which is fine 

 

Cut a 80 X 20mm hole horizontally near the top of the wall in the plasterboard. 

 

If you can't see any cellulose shove your phone in with the video and flashlight on and have a look.  

 

JUST DON'T DROP YOUR PHONE!!!!!!!

 

Hm, it's a bit of a pity, since everything is painted thrice over already. OTOH, if I am going to get some of that Italian cork+plasterboard anyhow, I might as well.

 

But how do I cut a hole in the plasterboard?

 

(I could try to locate the hole that appears in the pictures, but it seems to have been hidden carefully.)

[Iceverge]

1 hour ago, Garald said:

could try to locate the hole that appears in the pictures, but it seems to have been hidden carefully.)

 

Go elsewhere, you'll be lightly to hit screws etc there. 

 

1 hour ago, Garald said:

But how do I cut a hole in the plasterboard

 

Its not too hard. 

 

Bang a screwdriver through it and use a bread knife if you don't have any tools. 

 

Otherwise a 20mm hole saw would do nicely. 

[Garald]

10 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

 

Go elsewhere, you'll be lightly to hit screws etc there. 

 

 

Its not too hard. 

 

Bang a screwdriver through it and use a bread knife if you don't have any tools. 

 

Otherwise a 20mm hole saw would do nicely. 

 

And how do I cover it up? In the way I said?

[Andehh]

Honestly, the time cost and stress will out weigh the slump in insulation you'll find.

 

Once all is said and done, whatever improvements you make will take 10 years to pay off.... Probably more.

 

If you are hell bent on it, it a good sized central hole, so that when you find a gap in the insulation you can fix it via the same hole.

 

Reality is.... You'll never notice the difference before and after.

 

Ignorance. Is. Bliss.