Fire alarm HMO

[Nickfromwales]

There's  big difference between immediately dangerous and not to current standards. This guys hoping to get an easy job. 

Would it not be cheaper and quicker just to ditch the single RCBO back to an MCB and fit a 30ma front-of-house RCD ?

Change of £100 and less than an hours work. 

[dpmiller]

unless ther's a requirement to split protection of course.

[ProDave]

Yes but then a single 30mA rcd for everything raises other issues (hence the compromise of dual rcd split boards that "solve" that issue but are still a compromise.)

 

I would just update the other socket circuits and shower to an rcbo, unless it's a particularly unusual board where the rcbo's are hard to obtain or very expensive.

 

@pocster Still waiting for a piccy of the CU

 

But this guy is going to charge loads of dosh to slap some stickers on.

 

Another thing that "annoyed" me is he noted poor earth on a class 2 fitting, even mentioned "loose terminal" so he must have opened the fitting, seen the loose terminal, and put it back together thinking "that's another job ££££££"  FFS If I opened a fitting and saw a loose earth terminal I would just tighten it and put the item back together.  Perhaps that's why I am short of money?  One could argue if he indeed had found a loose terminal and put it back together knowing it was defective then in the event of someone then getting killed by that item he would be guilty by his negligence? I am not prepared to take that chance and if I find a loose terminal I bloody well tighten it.

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Perhaps that's why I am short of money?

You and me both mate. 

If I could turn my conscience off I'd make a bloody fortune. 

 

Point being this is, all but one RCBO, front of house rcd anyway. There is no need to split or segregate and this is the guy who has a £1 meter on his missus's hairdryer  so cost effective too. 

 

I'd recommend a CU change here to a modern dual RCD 17th ed board, of course, and if I was spending a few hundred THATS where I'd put my money. 

Safer, and 50% redundancy. You can buy a CU for less than these aforementioned bits will cost to retro fit into the existing CU so I'd go that way in a heartbeat. 

 

[Pocster]

Photo of CU today I promise :-)

 

I spoke to him today and challenged him about the 500 for stickers and an RCD. He 'claimed' (can't recall the exact wording) it needs a new unit and that it needs 2 breakers outside that. So that in event of 'some' issue not all the power is lost. The photo is going to help you guys I think - stay tuned!

Will source other quotes!!!

 

Cheers

[Jeremy Harris]

Assuming that the legacy CU is still serviceable, and Dave has confirmed what I understood, that an older installation has "grandfathered rights", so doesn't need to be brought up to the current standard unless it's defective in some other way, then just changing to RCBOs is an option, plus adding some stickers on the cover (you can put the stickers on yourself, AFAIK, all you need are the hazard ones, the colour code warning one and the "this unit has an RCD, test periodically" ones.  If you have smoke/fire alarms then the circuits they are connected to need a sticker to show this (not sure if it's in the current regs or not, but I did it anyway, as the stickers came free with the alarms).

 

However, as Nick says, it could well be just as cheap and quick to change the CU over for a new 17th Ed one.  They aren't massively expensive, and it's not usually a big job if the rest of the wiring is in reasonable condition.  A new 13 way metal CU, complete, is under £70 (just a random one taken from this link - not a recommendation: https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BGDP18613.html ), and even if you had to pay for a whole day's time from the electrician the whole bill shouldn't be more than about £250 (I paid our electrician a day rate of around £160/day, IIRC).  The CU should come with stickers, but if not, you can buy them pretty cheaply: https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Necessities_Index/A_Warning_Labels_All/index.html

 

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by JSHarris

[Onoff]

A plastic cu is generally considered a C3 "if under wooden stairs" etc.

[Pocster]

Here you go !

[ProDave]

That looks like a TNS or TNCS supply (subject to confirmation) so the up front rcd is unecessary.

 

The MEM CU.  Proper MEM rcbo's are hard to find and expensive. Wylex ones will fit but the mix and match police will tell you that is dangerous.

 

So on balance a new up to date split load CU is probably the best solution and should be a straightforward swap.

 

Sell that one MEM rcbo on ebay.

[Jeremy Harris]

The supply is TN-C-S according to the report, and from the photo that earth block seems to connect to the incoming combined N/PE.  I suspect it may have been TT at one time, though, hence the 100mA RCD feeding the CU.  Looks like there have been piecemeal changes to parts of the installation over the years.  The tails look older than the meter, for example, and the earth block next to the incomer looks new'ish, too, which suggests that the 100mA RCD is a hang over from a previous arrangement, which would support the idea that it was once TT.

[Nickfromwales]

@pocster

Go buy a new CU and have it all tidy from the head in. That 100ma RCD is only worth scrap weight anyway as it offers no non-lethal protection. 

If your spending money, make it good money after good, plus it'll fly all the next checkups for years to come.

There are already 10mm2 PVC earth cables to the gas meter and water stopcock so another job that doesn't need doing / paying for.

 

[Onoff]

Entro Electrics of Bristol did some notifiable works at the property on 4 Feb 2007, the cert number was 1752850.

 

 

I wonder if they put the rcbo in?

[Nickfromwales]

That RCBO is a bit random TBH. Was wondering what the merit was of fitting that. ?

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

That RCBO is a bit random TBH. Was wondering what the merit was of fitting that. ?

 

I'm guessing it was a 16th thing seeing that 2007 date as in only sockets that might be used to power something portable outside etc.

 

I remember always wondering about people dropping extension leads down from upstairs to power their lawnmowers.....

Edited September 13, 2017 by Onoff

[Pocster]

Hey guys.

 

Thanks for all the feedback!

So is his 500 just to pass it a 'reasonable' fee considering what you've all said??

 

Cheers!

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, pocster said:

Hey guys.

 

Thanks for all the feedback!

So is his 500 just to pass it a 'reasonable' fee considering what you've all said??

 

Cheers!

I say no, but I don't know the labour rates where you are.

 

All the testing is done, so the "testing" bit of a normal consumer unit swap is done.  The replacement CU will cost less than £100. It would only be a couple of hours work to swap it, but let's be generous and allow half a day (the new CU will come with all the stickers)  So he's saying £400 for half a days work or £800 per day.

 

I somehow suspect labour rates are not that high where you are?

 

 

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

I say no, but I don't know the labour rates where you are.

 

All the testing is done, so the "testing" bit of a normal consumer unit swap is done.  The replacement CU will cost less than £100. It would only be a couple of hours work to swap it, but let's be generous and allow half a day (the new CU will come with all the stickers)  So he's saying £400 for half a days work or £800 per day.

 

I somehow suspect labour rates are not that high where you are?

 

 

I know brain surgeons whose daily rate isn't that!

 

Now I have some ammo I should be able to get a sensible quote!

[Nickfromwales]

5 minutes ago, pocster said:

I know brain surgeons whose daily rate isn't that!

 

Now I have some ammo I should be able to get a sensible quote!

Spend the money on a cu change 

[Onoff]

+1 on new cu.

[Jeremy Harris]

I agree, a CU swap has to be the cheapest fix.  Here an electrician is on around £160 to £180 a day, but even if you have to pay £200 a day in Bristol it can't be more than a couple of hundred pounds or so to do the whole job, including the new CU with the right RCDs, stickers etc.  It's an easy job, too, as that 100mA DP RCD makes isolating the incomer to do the work dead easy, no need to call upon Amelie and faff around with the company fuse, especially as that new'ish meter isn't one of the ones with an isolator switch built in.

 

The only question mark is the condition of the existing wiring, but I'd have thought that if it was iffy that would have been picked up during the inspection.

[Ferdinand]

@pocster

 

Still a little difficult to comment because I am surmising what it is from Google Streetview and the published database of all HMOs in the area (bl***y moronic Council publishing a target list for criminals and squatters), however it appears to be a normal medium sized terrace converted into a HMO with loft rooms to give perhaps 5 letting rooms on 3 floors.

 

For that IMO £500 may be about right for a full inspection plus some remedial and including an Electrical Certificate since in any sensible world (and Bristol is in the sensible world) that should be at least 1-1.5 days time for labour for a single 'lecky assuming no major material costs, which would be adequate for an inspection of such a property and some minimal repair. It is not a big house.

 

So I would kick your electrician into touch, and get another sensible one to do the CU and reinspect as part of the job - showing them the original report to prove that the inspection work needed may be minimal. You need to use your skill and judgeent to source one, but there are landlord directories around or perhaps try the RLA/NLA or recommendations.

 

But first talk to the HMO Jonnies at the Council to check their requirements on the points raised and what they think.

 

You may not get very far because using HHSRS is a 2-3 day course, which then lets them understand the system for every issue in the world and everything from trip hazards to asbestos to damp, and interpret the hundreds of pages of supporting documentation. Then they plug it into a huge spreadsheet built on not that much evidence and decide your fate like a Georgian Magistrate with his finger in the air.

 

I am still waiting for someone to challenge it based on lack-of-specialist-expertise of the enforcer, but holding Councils to account is a game for stinking rich mugs.

 

Best of luck.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Pocster]

Got a new electrician (this time recommended!) to look at the paperwork - he hasn't visited the property yet.

His view was lots of the C2 could be C3 or C4. He felt it was certainly comprehensive but maybe also looking for some work i.e. up the costs!

 

On the basis of what he's read he at this point thinks the fire alarm may be ok. he agrees the 100mA is wrong but no need in his opinion to 'upgrade' to a split CU on an existing one "just for the hell of it". EM he said he'll need too see and I probably do need more (which I guess I would agree with).

He's taking a look Saturday so should know more then.

Will post an update when I have some news!

 

Cheers all!

[ProDave]

Sounds like he is much more reasonable. Keep us posted.

[Pocster]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

Sounds like he is much more reasonable. Keep us posted.

Oh I will!; don't worry!

 

I was ripped off on my tiled roof I certainly ain't going to be stung for 5k on an HMO!.

And tenants wonder why the rent goes up! . TBH my moto is "best of the cheapest" ; no luxury but fully functional at a fair price.

Update on Saturday!

 

Cheers

[Pocster]

OK!

 

Got myself a new quote ... what do we think??

 

All works will come with the relevant Certificatication.

FIRE ALARM SYSTEM
 

To supply and install
 

Bedroom 1                 1 x Ionisation Smoke Detector and Base

Bedroom 2                 1 x Ionisation Smoke Detector and Base

Bedroom 3                 1 x Ionisation Smoke Detector and Base

Bedroom 4                 1 x Ionisation Smoke Detector and Base

Bedroom 5                 1 x Ionisation Smoke Detector and Base

 
 

Dining Room              1 x Ionisation Smoke Detector and Base
 

Kitchen                       1 x R/O/R Heat Detector and Base

                                   1 x Break Glass/Manual Callpoint
 

Comunal Areas          3 x Ionisation Smoke Detectors and Bases
                                   3 x Break Glass/Manual Callpoint

                                   4 x Banshee Sounders

 

All to be controlled via 1 x 4 zone fire panel with battery backup to comply with BS5839-6:2004 Fire Detection and Alarm Systems.
 

Total including labour and materials £2500.00

 

EMERGENCY LIGHTING:
 

To supply and install:
 

3 x EMS14 Light fittings to communal areas.

1 x EMS14 Light fitting to Dining area.
 

EMS14 Light fittings incorporate presence sensors, therefore existing switches will be removed and blanked off.
 

Total including labour and materials £400.00

 

MAINS BOARD
 

To supply and install:
 

1 x 6 plus 6 17th Edition consumer unit to incorporate existing installation.
 

Total including labour and materials £500.00