Planning Permission battles

[Indy]

Following a couple of posts in other threads on the forum – this is the first time I’m actively posting after almost a year or so away. I guess this post is mainly going to be a summary of what’s happened in all that time and mainly acts as catharsis for me as it’s been a very up/down journey since we started the whole process in Aug 2021.

 

Application #1

As some of the members may remember, our planning application went in Mar 2022 after we started the design in Aug 2021. This was outright denied by the LPA with no engagement at all, no clarifications sought, no comments invited by our architect and planning consultant. Applied in Mar 2022 and denied in Aug 2022. 1 year from starting the process. Very disappointed as we didn’t know until the day of the refusal being received which way the planner was leaning.

 

Application #2

Picked myself up after a couple of weeks of moping, engaged with the architect again and decided to go in for pre-app. Booked a slot in Dec 2022 just before Christmas and went through 3 options wth the planning officer:

1. Option A – Plan that we presented and was refused. Too big and bulky and too contemporary.
2. Option B – Halfway house between what we wanted and what the council wanted. 
3. Option C – tamest design, basically a new build dormer bungalow that the LPA wanted us to build to retain ‘aesthetics’

Went back and forth on the options and both parties (me, architect, chartered planner AND the planning officer on the other side) agreed that Option B with some tweaks would be acceptable.

Worked the design based on their inputs, got the new ecology/tree/bat surveys done and submitted in Mar 2022. 

 

Decent engagement through the application (as we had paid for the pre-app, which seemed to unlock access to the Planning officer) – major rework throughout the consultation period and were given a verbal agreement that our revised design was acceptable. They needed to run a 4w consultation again in the middle of app – which we agreed to. 

 

On the day that we were due to hear back with a rubber stamping of the application – complete gut punch, it was refused completely. The reason was basically the LPA team leader overruling the planning officer’s advice and telling us that Option C would be the only option acceptable. We asked for them to refuse so we could appeal. This finally arrived in Jul 2023. 2years in with no next steps clear.

 

Application #3 

3.    Decided to appeal the refused application as architect + planner thought we had a very strong case to appeal with costs. Submitted in Aug 2023 and still waiting to hear back on what’s going to happen. Been 2m since the application went in and it hasn’t been validated as yet by the Planning Inspectorate. Could be another 6-8m before we hear leading us well into Q2 2024. 

 

Application #4

In the meantime, we submitted Option C drawings to the council to get them approved anyway for the sake of a £500 application fee. This was done and came back last week so in theory we do have plans approved on something my wife and I both dislike.

 

Summary:
•    2 years and 4m in – we have approval to build a rather boring dormer bungalow replacement.
•    No idea on whether the slightly more contemporary design we want to build will be approved – won’t find out for another 6m or so.
•    Realistically, earliest time we’d be able to start building based on whether we win the appeal or not would be summer 2024 – 3y after getting the plot.

 

In the meantime, life and the world has moved on. The primary driver for doing this was for schools for the kids – and the fact that its been delayed so long means they’ve started school locally where we are already. This massively reduces the drive to move as it would mean disruption to their academic calendar and the 7+ prep exams that the older one would be preparing for. 

 

Engagement from the council made it clear that they’re not interested in high quality contemporary design – all they want is to cling to an aesthetic from 50-70y ago, and any risky decisions should be taken by the Planning Inspectorate rather than the LPA itself.

 

Cost of borrowing and building has gone through the roof – really putting the viability of the whole thing into question. Do I really want to borrow at 6% rather than 2% (realistically higher as self build mortgages are riskier) to move to a place where the council don’t want us, when it would cause so much disruption to our personal lives? Also, do I really want to invest so much right now given that end prices have stalled/crashed so the break even may not even be possible?

 

Like I said – there’s not much point to this point apart from summarising what’s happened over the last 2 and bit years and I can see why people are put off on ever taking on a self build. The whole planning system is broken, understaffed and not fit for purpose. All this talk of building our way out of the problem blah blah blah I see is complete and utter tosh. We have a system that bottlenecks any such endeavours and it doesn’t seem to be going away any time soon.
 

[Big Jimbo]

Planning can really get you down. I would rather see a definitive distinction between old and new Architecture. Council want everything to look like something that went before. Sad mistake in my opinion. Our lead planning officer simply refuses anything that the PC object to. Make his life easy. Sad little twat has no mind of his own.

[joe90]

Don’t talk to me about bl@@dy planners, long story short (as most here have heard it all before) don’t give up on the appeal, I won hands down on a completely different design (old timber and  asbestos “shack” replaced with large brick cottage. I found the appeal process easier than the planners and mine was only a few months. I may be wrong but I don’t think planners can refuse being too contemporary. I think most planners are opinionated bullies (I am sure there are some good ones, somewhere 🤷‍♂️). This was not my only “win” against planners, a previous win at a different location was because I found they were telling lies about permitted development rights. Best of luck and keep us informed.

[Indy]

Some gems from our planning engagement:

1. The planner forcing us to put a crown roof in the design despite strong objections from the architect and myself. Gave in despite increased cost and build complexity. Then turning around and using the crown roof as one of the reasons for refusal!
2. Asking us to lower the ridge height initially which we did reluctantly. A couple of months telling us to increase the height to be higher than what we'd originally asked for and then approving that - never did understand that one!
3. Telling us constantly throughout our Application #2 that the design was fine, had been reviewed and we had to wait for the consultation period to expire before we'd get it in writing. Then on the day we were expecting formal approval - telling us it was going to be refused and did we want to change the design and resubmit? Basically the planner getting overruled when he presented his case to the Team Lead, who needed to sign it off and obviously wouldn't.
4. For application #3, insistence that we needed to get updated comments from all parties including the arboricultural officer that the planner uses - despite there being no changes to the application on that front when it was considered as part of application #2. And I mean absolutely identical in terms of tree impact!
5. Waiting to hear back on Application #3 till the last day published on the application page, not doing so after 5pm. I then sent an email to enquire what happened and got an out of office. Escalated to the team lead and was basically told no one would be looking at it while our officer was away on leave, so we had no option but to wait.
6. The LPA ignoring their SPD published on their website indicating that a high weight should be placed on high quality design. My architect took direct inputs from that document in our revised application to make it as smooth as possible and the LPA basically ignored it. 
7. Telling us that we were not allowed to extend beyond 3m from the current property boundary. We had to argue that this guideline comes from PD rights, and not when reviewing full planning applications that should be evaluated on the overall merit. Didn't work - forced us to scale the size of the property back.
8. Weird interpretation of the 45deg light/shadowing rules which meant that we had very specific endpoints both at the front and end of the property, boxing us in to a very specific size - despite our model showing that we fully complied to the national guidelines. Gave up arguing this in the end to the LPAs own and incorrect interpretation. 

[Alan Ambrose]

You have our sympathies. I'm sure some LPA's are OK, but ours is similar to yours. I agree that the system seems to be designed to perpetuate the 1940s or earlier - as though everything built back then was worthy of being emulated. In truth a lot of our building stock is atrocious thrown-together cheap garbage, and the last thing that should happen is it being copied. p.s. which LPA are you, I'll look up their stats?

Edited October 18, 2023 by Alan Ambrose

[Indy]

9 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

You have our sympathies. I'm sure some LPA's are OK, but ours is similar to yours. I agree that the system seems to be designed to perpetuate the 1940s or earlier - as though everything built back then was worthy of being emulated. In truth a lot of our building stock is atrocious thrown-together cheap garbage, and the last thing that should happen is it being copied. p.s. which LPA are you, I'll look up their stats?

Elmbridge

[ToughButterCup]

@Indy, the process is a Character Test as well as an administrative one. Only sleepless nights, digested for a fortnight or more can answer the questions you raise above.

We waited 35 years from first twinkle-in-the-eye to breaking ground. Maybe let it stew for a while?

[Alan Ambrose]

From here: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables-on-planning-application-statistics

 

You need tables P154 - quality of non-major decisions i.e. how often the LPA is over-turned at appeal.

And P153 - speed of non-major decisions i.e. how often the LPA hits the 8-week target.

 

OK in 2021/22 Elmbridge had 43% appeals over-turned, 22/23 was 29%. (29% btw is the national average.)

 

In the 24 months to end of March 2023 Elmbridge turned around 86.2% of their 'non-major' decisions in 8 weeks. (Note that this excludes any 'validation' period.) That is, they're a bit below the middle of the pack. BTW the theory is, that if they go below 70% they go into 'special measures'.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Alan Ambrose

[Alan Ambrose]

p.s. these are the LPAs that should be in 'special measures':

 

Calderdale Council – 97 per cent for April to June 2023 
Cotswold District Council – 72 per cent rolling two-year average; 88 per cent for April to June 2023 
Epsom & Ewell Borough Council – 66 per cent rolling two-year average; 95 per cent for April to June 2023 
Guildford Borough Council – 55 per cent rolling two-year average; 82 per cent for April to June 2023 
Hinckley & Bosworth Borough Council – 55 per cent rolling two-year average; 90 per cent for April to June 2023 
Peak District National Park Authority – 62 per cent rolling two-year average; 85 per cent for April to June 2023 
Pendle Borough Council – 74 per cent rolling two-year average; 97 per cent for April to June 2023 
Portsmouth City Council – 65 per cent rolling two-year average; 99 per cent for April to June 2023 
Vale of White Horse District Council – 78 per cent for a two-year rolling average for non-major applications and 99 per cent April to June 2023; 68 per cent for a two-year rolling average for major applications and 93 per cent for April to June 2023 
Waverley Borough Council – 71 per cent rolling two-year average; 97 per cent for April to June 2023 

 

from:

 

https://blog.planningportal.co.uk/2023/10/12/10-local-planning-authorities-wont-be-designated-at-this-time/

[Gone West]

It took us a couple of years to finally get Planning Approval. We beat the LPA but still compromised on what we originally wanted. You have to really want to build your own place, to be bothered to persevere.

[joe90]

Torridge district council is not on that list of councils that should be in special measures but our appeal officer said they should be!!,

[Indy]

Well... we had our decision back today and it's what we feared. Both the appeal and costs awards have been rejected.

 

I wasn't overly concerned with the costs award but the officer reviewing the application seems to have taken the council's side for almost every point that we flagged in our appeal. There are some concessions made where the 'contrived and incoherent' roof design was forced upon us by the LPA and then ultimately used to refuse our application - but that was swept away in the end as we 'accepted' the LPAs advice and therefore made a change to the design and it can only be considered as it was finally presented.

 

Not sure where it leaves us now... 

[ToughButterCup]

I've re-read the whole thread.   In a similar situation I'd

• take a break from it for a while, 
• wait for the election to pass and then
• read and summarise the Appeal Inspectors report accurately
• compare point for point what the LPA and the Planning Inspector say about each issue they identify
• in as few words as possible, write a list of all the issues that you think need to be solved and
• address those issues over which you have some control
• ask an Independent Planner - (not one recommended by your architect) to review the whole application and 
• give advice and suggest the next steps
• keep an eye on Planning Policy
• network among qualified professionals in your neck of the woods
• research the decisions taken by your LPA Planner - and the outcomes
• research your Inspector's track record too
• Summarise what you find.
• Chew it for a while and then post here.

Reading between the lines, some things don't fit: on advice, issues appear to be addressed and then despite that your application is rejected. 

 

It might be an idea for you to copy and paste the LPAs feedback and that of the Inspector into a post here - it'll give us all something to chew over.

 

Don't let the bastards get you down.

Ian

[Alan Ambrose]

@Indy

 

B....x - commiserations, I feel for you.

[Kelvin]

I really feel for you. It beggars belief just how poor some planning authorities are. 

[saveasteading]

If it is any comfort.   the best planning officers used to become appeals specialists based in Bristol.  It has since been become a subcontracted,  privatised system.

I don't know for sure, and would love to know, but I feel that they probably win it by offering the lowest bid. then they don't give it enough time or consideration, and look for the easiest way to make a decision.

I have seen a few appeals over recent years where it was clearly a quick decision without further consultation, especially of technical matters out-with their skillset.  ie someone far away with no knowledge trumped the local councillors and planning officers.

Perhaps analyse their prime reason for the decision and see if there are holes in the logic.