Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[zoothorn]

@-rick- Many thanks again for your suggestions:
 

All taken on board/ redoing the upstairs plasterboard especially etc. Understood. A big job I can't quite plunge into right now, February etc. But food for thought!
 

And @Big Jimbo for the holes / foam idea: this is the most feasable idea, for me, & as I don't neccessarily need these bedrooms warm, only priority is improving the big room below.
 

I'll put a line under this thread, having been a conclusion to my Vaillant battle, now me drifting way off topic.
 

Fantastic help, as per usual.

 

Zoothorn

 

 

 

 

[-rick-]

Been a bit busy today, just looked at the earlier posts. Sorry I clearly got the build up of the upstairs rooms wrong. If it's plasterboard on dabs on dodgy cavity wall then the plasterboard tent point is even more valid.

 

One of the reasons I suggest dealing with those rooms first is if cold air is getting into the structure from there it's going to make heating the downstairs harder. Loads of houses have cold concrete floors and while they may not be the most comfortable they can generally be heated which makes me think that dealing with the floor should be lower down on the priority list until you have the ability to heat better than now.

 

Whatever you do, if the heating system is running off a thermostat located in a warm room or it continues only operating for a few hours a day your house wont be warm unless you do an awful lot of work (bringing the house to modern standards). But, if basic air sealing is done and plasterboard tent possibilities are eliminated then what you have should be able to warm the space if the actually running (ie, the thermostat and timer are all saying 'provide heat'). Can you confirm where the thermostat is? If it needs moving you should start thinking about that and also put some time into working out how to change the schedule.

 

Wish you the best of luck dealing with this.

 

[zoothorn]

19 hours ago, -rick- said:

Been a bit busy today, just looked at the earlier posts. Sorry I clearly got the build up of the upstairs rooms wrong. If it's plasterboard on dabs on dodgy cavity wall then the plasterboard tent point is even more valid.

 

One of the reasons I suggest dealing with those rooms first is if cold air is getting into the structure from there it's going to make heating the downstairs harder. Loads of houses have cold concrete floors and while they may not be the most comfortable they can generally be heated which makes me think that dealing with the floor should be lower down on the priority list until you have the ability to heat better than now.

 

Whatever you do, if the heating system is running off a thermostat located in a warm room or it continues only operating for a few hours a day your house wont be warm unless you do an awful lot of work (bringing the house to modern standards). But, if basic air sealing is done and plasterboard tent possibilities are eliminated then what you have should be able to warm the space if the actually running (ie, the thermostat and timer are all saying 'provide heat'). Can you confirm where the thermostat is? If it needs moving you should start thinking about that and also put some time into working out how to change the schedule.

 

Wish you the best of luck dealing with this.

 

Hi Rick,

 

very valid points- all taken into consideration. If I -could- just block the perimeter loft air from hitting the main room ceiling edges, by injecting foam.. I'd think that's a logical 1st step. Evaluate. If no difference felt, then the whole hog wall renovation of the 2 bedrooms needs to be considered.

 

The tent analogy.. still eludes me! Nevermind. I'll put a line under this cold ingress problem, for now. Nearing winter's end anyway.

 

-----

 

Back to Vaillant success. Or not..

Erm.. spanner in the works: new Monobloc (Arotherm Plus is the exact wording description I'm informed today by them) system faulty already. 3 weeks that took.
 

No HW last evening, no HW this morning. Otherwise rads working as normal. Engineer visit booked Monday. No fault code showing up on little Thermostat controller screen, nor on the 'Interface' box between cylinder & outside HPump box.

 

These things, are SO fallible, you need a lifetime warranty to be able to live normally-reassured with them. I have only a 2 year warranty.. & I'm panicking about the cost of engineer fix visits after the 2 year mark, already now just 3 weeks in.

 

Zoot

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by zoothorn

[-rick-]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

very valid points- all taken into consideration. If I -could- just block the perimeter loft air from hitting the main room ceiling edges, by injecting foam.. I'd think that's a logical 1st step. Evaluate. If no difference felt, then the whole hog wall renovation of the 2 bedrooms needs to be considered.

 

I'm no expert on any of this and I know you've been back and forth over this in the past with others who know more than so I doubt I'm saying anything new but my thought is that you need to think hollistically. Trying to warm the sitting room up when the other rooms are cold is a losing proposition. Your loft insulation is above the bedrooms not above the sitting room. If the bedrooms are cold the heat from the sitting room will rise and get lost in the cold bedroom. To put it another way think about stopping the loft air from getting behind the bedroom walls, not just at the junction to the sitting room.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

The tent analogy.. still eludes me! Nevermind. I'll put a line under this cold ingress problem, for now. Nearing winter's end anyway.

 

Understand, but do try and come back to it during the summer. Try to make this the last year you can see your breath inside during the winter.

 

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

Erm.. spanner in the works: new Monobloc (Arotherm Plus is the exact wording description I'm informed today by them) system faulty already. 3 weeks that took.
 

No HW last evening, no HW this morning. Otherwise rads working as normal. Engineer visit booked Monday. No fault code showing up on little Thermostat controller screen, nor on the 'Interface' box between cylinder & outside HPump box.

 

Honestly, this sounds like a blessing in disguise. You were left with a system you didn't know how to control. While the engineer is there get them to show you how to adjust the system (temperature set point and the timer).

 

If there are no fault codes the issue is likely fairly simple.

 

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

These things, are SO fallible, you need a lifetime warranty to be able to live normally-reassured with them. I have only a 2 year warranty.. & I'm panicking about the cost of engineer fix visits after the 2 year mark, already now just 3 weeks in.

 

I think the experience of people on here are that heatpumps are just as reliable if not more so than modern gas boilers (both full of electronics nowdays). Everything can get a fault, especially if something was missed around install, but once setup correctly and as long as serviced regularly it should be fine. My main concern is that if the system is running flat out and not getting any heat into the place then thats way outside it's design parameters and could cause excessive wear. So if you want the heat pump to last then this summer is definitely the time to put some effort into attacking the issues in the house.

 

 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, -rick- said:

 

I'm no expert on any of this and I know you've been back and forth over this in the past with others who know more than so I doubt I'm saying anything new but my thought is that you need to think hollistically. Trying to warm the sitting room up when the other rooms are cold is a losing proposition. Your loft insulation is above the bedrooms not above the sitting room. If the bedrooms are cold the heat from the sitting room will rise and get lost in the cold bedroom. To put it another way think about stopping the loft air from getting behind the bedroom walls, not just at the junction to the sitting room.

 

 

Understand, but do try and come back to it during the summer. Try to make this the last year you can see your breath inside during the winter.

 

 

Honestly, this sounds like a blessing in disguise. You were left with a system you didn't know how to control. While the engineer is there get them to show you how to adjust the system (temperature set point and the timer).

 

If there are no fault codes the issue is likely fairly simple.

 

 

I think the experience of people on here are that heatpumps are just as reliable if not more so than modern gas boilers (both full of electronics nowdays). Everything can get a fault, especially if something was missed around install, but once setup correctly and as long as serviced regularly it should be fine. My main concern is that if the system is running flat out and not getting any heat into the place then thats way outside it's design parameters and could cause excessive wear. So if you want the heat pump to last then this summer is definitely the time to put some effort into attacking the issues in the house.

 

 

That's another good point Rick. And another following that too.

 

Yup could be a summer project, to address the upstairs bedrooms. But my sense, that is you do simply get this from living here/ & a few exceptions houses are just 'impossibly cold'.. is the the vast majority of the cold ingress is UP & IN from the walls.
 

Like you point to, I will never be aiming to run the HP on flat out. The rads are hotter now, yes, but the installer (trained up by Vaillant, & used by Vaillant) said this Monobloc os just able to do this higher rads output. So I assume the rads are not running flat out, but just set "medium" currently.

 

I'll only ever be able to use two blocks of heat, 7-9am & 6-8pm. And the setback temp at 12*C. So that setting is surely on the 'easy HPump workload' side of operation, not straining it at all. Honestly, I just never expected, nor do I ever expect, this HeatPump (or any HP) to be able to warm this cottage. It's not designed for it. They wanted to pull out & not install it due to U calculations or whatever the thing's called, which they did here & found it so low as to be totally unsuitable for a HP.

 

But nevertheless, I do expect to be able to get hot water. In the morning, 2 hours after it's meant to have done it's 'HW create period' (as I call it as Ive no other way to describe what on earth to call this 1 hour HW period) of 1 hour 9-10 am. And this is exactly what I had for 3 weeks too & what Ive always had, producing very HW... until it failed to, today.

 

I find them unbelievably complicated. I can't understand a word the engineer, or installer gabbles on about. So damn fast. Not a word. All I can do, is ask the installer to "please just set it to medium/ all of it". And keep my fingers x'd it keeps working. But the number of callouts of the Vaillant engineers, to fix this, fix that, no HW, no water pressure, was so numerous & extensive on the last system (that's totally separate to the noise issue plaguing me).. that I'm just not surprised the new one's failed in 3 weeks.
 

As soon as the winter's out I will turn the damn thing off. I can live with no HW, having a shower (that works- & I installed that too!), & never using any hot tap ever. 
 

Thanks Zoot

[-rick-]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

But my sense, that is you do simply get this from living here/ & a few exceptions houses are just 'impossibly cold'.. is the the vast majority of the cold ingress is UP & IN from the walls.

 

Houses that can't be heated exist but the reason they are like that is that they have problems and these problems can be fixed. As we've discussed already, houses that are relatively well sealed from outside air blowing the heat away can be heated. The only question is whether the cost of heating them is economical. So far you haven't got to the point where you can make that decision and I think you need to get to that point before giving up.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Like you point to, I will never be aiming to run the HP on flat out. The rads are hotter now, yes, but the installer (trained up by Vaillant, & used by Vaillant) said this Monobloc os just able to do this higher rads output. So I assume the rads are not running flat out, but just set "medium" currently.

 

I doubt that's a good description. The hotter the heatpump runs the radiators the less efficient it will be. I'm sure he set the temperature high because your house seemed cold and he thought it was what was required. It certainly would be required if only running the heating for a few hours a day but running the heatpump for longer at a lower temperature can be less costly than running one at high temperatures for shorter.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I'll only ever be able to use two blocks of heat, 7-9am & 6-8pm. And the setback temp at 12*C.

 

No thats wrong. You need to get that changed, you can change those setting to run the heatpump as much as your want and I very much doubt that running it as above will result in anything other than wasting money and no real feeling of warmth.

 

In a house like yours, it's likely you need to keep the internal temperature of the building fairly stable because of the amount of energy it takes to change the temperature is immense. It's why I suggested being ready at the end of summer with the heating set to never let the internal temperature drop below a certain point. At least for a while so you can work out how much it costs to do so.*

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

So that setting is surely on the 'easy HPump workload' side of operation, not straining it at all.

 

The exact opposite in many ways. You are asking the HP to work at maximum output for those 2 hours then turn off. Heatpumps ideally like to run continuously and a relatively low output.

 

Basically you are asking a marathon runner to compete in 100m sprints.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Honestly, I just never expected, nor do I ever expect, this HeatPump (or any HP) to be able to warm this cottage. It's not designed for it. They wanted to pull out & not install it due to U calculations or whatever the thing's called, which they did here & found it so low as to be totally unsuitable for a HP.

 

Do you have a copy of those calculations? Would be good to see them. I tend to agree that it's a big ask for a 9kw heatpump in your space especially if you want warm (>20C) rooms. However, given the work you've already done plus a bit more this summer I do think the heatpump should be able to keep your space warmer than it has been. Maybe it's only capable of maintaining 17C or even 16C when it's really cold outside but thats still much better than what you have now if you can see your breath inside. But the key to making this happen is to make the heatpumps job as easy as possible and that means not letting the building go cold in the first place.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I find them unbelievably complicated. I can't understand a word the engineer, or installer gabbles on about. So damn fast. Not a word. All I can do, is ask the installer to "please just set it to medium/ all of it". And keep my fingers x'd it keeps working.

 

This is something you really need to confront not run away from. At minimum you need to know how to turn the heating on / off manually and adjust the temperature. I had a quick look and it's only a few button presses. Ideally you'd also know how to adjust the timer.

 

Best advice for how to get this from the engineer is to say something along the lines of 'I really struggle with technical stuff like this can you show me how to turn the heating on and off', then when they try and press the buttons say 'no, can you let me drive, just tell me what to press'. Then you build up the muscle memory and can go at your speed rather than let them do that.

 

If dealing with the timer is too difficult I would at least want to know how to switch between timer and 'always on' (or 'always off').

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

But the number of callouts of the Vaillant engineers, to fix this, fix that, no HW, no water pressure, was so numerous & extensive on the last system (that's totally separate to the noise issue plaguing me).. that I'm just not surprised the new one's failed in 3 weeks.

 

This is concerning, you don't have the best of luck. Hopefully, things improve from here.

 

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

As soon as the winter's out I will turn the damn thing off. I can live with no HW, having a shower (that works- & I installed that too!), & never using any hot tap ever. 

 

That's very defeatist and I do understand the feeling, it's been a long journey for you. If you have the conversation with the engineer as described above you should come away able to switch just the heating off while leaving hot water on. In anycase, if the temperature is set to something like 17/18C then theres no real need to turn it off at all. During the summer the heating just wont come on because the temperature won't drop enough to trigger it.

 

Plus, if something else is wrong best to find out about it during the summer when it's warm, not when you are wanting the heat when it's cold.

 

Edit to add: * I know the old system was set to be always on at 17C and you also had no luck with the stove on for long stretches. So I definitely see the need to make some improvements (and also make sure the thermostat is located correctly), but with the work you've done already I think you are not far away from where you need to be.

Edited 5 hours ago by -rick-

[zoothorn]

@-rick- I appreciate what you say here. And most kind to think from my pov as much as you are doing.

 

But I do find some opposing sort of opinion, if I may: the only time Ive ever said to myself 'ooh I can actually feel a bit of warmth! I can barely believe it! Warmth in my cottage?!' is since this new Monobloc's been in for the 3 weeks. Doing it's 2-hour block of rads on periods. That's the only time, in the last 5 years Ive actually noticed some warmth from them, enough to get a modicum of comfort.

 

So to say to me, no I have this present setting wrong, that I have to turn the system output down & run it longer instead (which is I believe how I/ or rather someone else set the prior Split HP system to run: it was on more continuously, but the rads weren't nearly as hot) & as a consequence, I'll not feel my bit of warmth, Is.. well, it's just counterintuitive, it's taking my bit of warmth, away from me. I can't see how I could rationally make that decision. When I wake up, last 3 weeks, I'm not stepping from duvet into a freezing cold room. It's not say over 16*C, no, but I'm not noticing cold immediately as I'm so used to here for 10 years. That's a huge change. Even for just a block of 2 hours.. it's like a mini luxury for me.
 

Honestly Rick as Ive said, I've only used the HP as a HW source. It's just not meant to reside in such a dwelling. And I feel grateful for the free cylinder. But iteasy to see they're designed for Scandi timber homes, having big insulation as priority in floors/ walls/ ceilings. I can't expect it to work here in a stone cottage sat upon cold clay with these slate & cold mud walls, honestly, I just can't. And I dont blame it for not working here as it's designed to at all.
 

But I do need it to give me HW. Because it's impossibly cold in my tiny bathroom for 6 if not 8 months of the year to have a shower (even with it's towel-rail HP rad on). So I -have- to have baths. It's this bathroom, & adjacent kitchen, which are the most uncomfortably cold rooms. They pip the main old big room! It's barking mad the way this house is cold. Sometimes it's noticeably mild outside in the air, & when I nip to the bathroom, I can see my breath. It was 16*C on my iPad in my area outside in autumn I recall, & felt like it too, mild, then I go to pee.. & I can see my breath. THAT's what it is often like here. it's bonkers cold. Irrationally cold. Completely, unusually, cold. So imagine the bathroom when it's 0*C outside!! No HP can be expected to input heat into such a bathroom. Like the cloying wet atmosphere, the cold is & I'm not even exaggerating, like an huge enemy entity.

 

Thanks, Zoot

Edited 3 hours ago by zoothorn