Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Our building control officer has said we need sprinklers to mitigate for fire access for our new build project (it's ridiculous as a fire engine would definitely get here in reality, but on paper our lane isn't wide enough and is unmade), and on a category 2 provision, so 30 minutes run time. We are building three single storey replicas of the pig farm buildings that were previously on the site (long planning battle once conversion couldn't be achieved) which will create two houses, one with a garage which also requires sprinklers. They are all timber frame construction with mostly timber cladding, so we do understand the benefits to having a sprinkler system if the worst should happen, but still feel very forced into having it. Typically our mains water supply doesn't meet the flow and pressure required so we're now looking at a 3000 litre tank and pump. Still working out if it can be underground (but would still need an overground control centre as it would be shared with my brother in law's property) or if it will have to be overground...which causes panic in terms of what it looks like/implications for planning as we are in a conservation area within no class E permitted development. We have been working with a sprinkler company so far but they haven't been great, and as things have got more complicated in terms of the tank etc, we are even less impressed with them. We're already at first fix on our house so need them their first fix in soon, but need to know what the full set up will entail before we fully commit (including pipes and cables in and out of the house), and currently don't feel we want them anywhere near! We have started talking to other companies again, too, but getting conflicting advice about the tank (under or over ground) etc. We would love to hear if anyone else has got a tank and pump for their sprinkler system, what it looks like and sizes, and if you have been able to put the tank underground, or if there is any overground set up and what that looks like, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Sorry can't help but i'm sure i read that the tank has to be much bigger than 3000litre. Are you sure that size will be ok ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 looks like a cat 1 system needs between 1m3 and 1.5m3 of stored water. Not a lot and could easily be put in the loft as long as truss company is aware of the extra loading. https://www.ultrasafe.org.uk/home-sprinklers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 40 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: Sorry can't help but i'm sure i read that the tank has to be much bigger than 3000litre. Are you sure that size will be ok ? So far I've been told that 3000 litres is ok for cat 2 i.e. 100l x 30mins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 24 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: looks like a cat 1 system needs between 1m3 and 1.5m3 of stored water. Not a lot and could easily be put in the loft as long as truss company is aware of the extra loading. https://www.ultrasafe.org.uk/home-sprinklers/ Unfortunately we have to comply with cat 2 as it's to mitigate for fire access, so need enough for 30mins of water. Didn't know there was a difference on categories until this week, and assumed cat 1 but BCO says cat 2. We also don't have a loft as they are all single storey buildings - they are like barn conversions but now new build replicas, if that makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 even cat 2 says a max of 4m3. dig a hole in the garden/drive and bury them. Just need a little chamber for a pump, they do say 3 phase as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 It is well worth double checking the water main as it is a lot easier to have, say a 63mm dedicated fire supply than to mess around with tanks and pumps. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 I like that idea @Mr Punter. Almost like a fire hydrant within the land that could service several properties. Good thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 Your quite lucky to only have to put sprinklers in Our local planners are using this to reject planning applications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 5 hours ago, nod said: Your quite lucky to only have to put sprinklers in Our local planners are using this to reject planning applications not a planning function though its building control. Appeal with costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 6 hours ago, Hannah82w said: Our building control officer has said we need sprinklers to mitigate for fire access Have you had a look at the cost of the water mist systems? Also they can be much less onerous in terms of water storage capacity and mains flow rate. There are a few companies on the internet that do them and you can send them your drawings to get a no obligation quote and some free technical advice. How many floors do you have? It sounds like you need something along the lines of an grade D system and the number of storeys will dictate whether you need and enhanced grade D or not, assuming a normal domestic dwelling. Main thing it to plan you fire strategy taking into account the early warning (heat and smoke detectors) and the fire suppresion system. This way you build confidence that you have the over all design right at a sensible cost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 53 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: not a planning function though its building control. Appeal with costs. Exactly Dave Planners will use anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 7 hours ago, nod said: Your quite lucky to only have to put sprinklers in Our local planners are using this to reject planning applications I just wish it was all a bit more joined up - why give permission for something when building regs then impose restrictions or make life difficult to achieve the permitted scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 8 hours ago, Dave Jones said: even cat 2 says a max of 4m3. dig a hole in the garden/drive and bury them. Just need a little chamber for a pump, they do say 3 phase as well. Thank you, I've seen this table as part of my research, will look at it again. 3 phase hasn't been mentioned by the various companies were talking to, and not sure we can achieve. We've been told 3000l by one company and 5000l by another! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 8 hours ago, Mr Punter said: It is well worth double checking the water main as it is a lot easier to have, say a 63mm dedicated fire supply than to mess around with tanks and pumps. We asked about a dedicated sprinkler supply when we applied for our water connections and they said they wouldn't agree to it, and that was 32mm! We are fairly rural and the pipes come up a hill from the mains pipe, so I suspect a bigger pipe will still not give us the flow and pressure we need, but will explore again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Gus Potter said: Have you had a look at the cost of the water mist systems? Also they can be much less onerous in terms of water storage capacity and mains flow rate. There are a few companies on the internet that do them and you can send them your drawings to get a no obligation quote and some free technical advice. How many floors do you have? It sounds like you need something along the lines of an grade D system and the number of storeys will dictate whether you need and enhanced grade D or not, assuming a normal domestic dwelling. Main thing it to plan you fire strategy taking into account the early warning (heat and smoke detectors) and the fire suppresion system. This way you build confidence that you have the over all design right at a sensible cost. Thank you. My previous research on this suggests that water mist systems don't meet BS9251 and BS9991 which is what we have to comply with. Will check again though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 We'd really like the original company to supply us with all the right info, but after several emails and trying to call them again today, still no further forward. Also tried to arrange a site meeting with them, and not yet got a positive response. Time to ditch and move on, despite deposit paid for initial sprinkler system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Potter Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 55 minutes ago, Hannah82w said: Thank you. My previous research on this suggests that water mist systems don't meet BS9251 and BS9991 which is what we have to comply with. Will check again though. Yes do that. Let the misting suppliers do the leg work for you and explain how their system is compliant or not with you requirements. Remember that it is in their interests to sell you their system. Send them the drawings and give them as much info as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 We are putting in 10,000litres aove ground. This is not for misting/sprinkler but for hoses if the appliance arrives empty or runs out. We proposed the volume based on precedent, but the fire authority simply don't respond. A sprinkler will use much less water based on the flow rate and that they are supposed to only operate in the zone of the fire. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 11 hours ago, Hannah82w said: I just wish it was all a bit more joined up - why give permission for something when building regs then impose restrictions or make life difficult to achieve the permitted scheme. We where given planning permission in principle Then told to bugger off somewhere else to build as we were in flood zone 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSB Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 13 hours ago, Hannah82w said: We asked about a dedicated sprinkler supply when we applied for our water connections and they said they wouldn't agree to it, and that was 32mm! We are fairly rural and the pipes come up a hill from the mains pipe, so I suspect a bigger pipe will still not give us the flow and pressure we need, but will explore again. Definitely different rules, as per my other comments to you, we are 120m from the mains, uphill and the water company and BC are happy with 32mm mains water. But, I do know that you have issues with water pressure currently. Is there any way that you can get mains and then 'boost' it somehow for the sprinkler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 13 hours ago, Hannah82w said: We asked about a dedicated sprinkler supply when we applied for our water connections and they said they wouldn't agree to it, and that was 32mm! We are fairly rural and the pipes come up a hill from the mains pipe, so I suspect a bigger pipe will still not give us the flow and pressure we need, but will explore again. You need to push back and tell them that you require a 63mm unmetered supply for sprinkler systems. You can do some tests to establish the rates actually required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 Our water supply is a piped, gravity trickle so we have a 3m3 tank and a pump which works at 3 bar. For domestic use. I'm sure there are lots of possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah82w Posted September 1, 2023 Author Share Posted September 1, 2023 Thanks all for your thoughts and suggestions. Having got a clearer idea of the full set up and requirements from the sprinkler companies, I sent an email to our BCO to update and ask for confirmation of likely approval of it all...and to ask one more time if there was any other way to mitigate for the fire access issue. And he has now suggested we could look at mist systems that comply with BS8458, which could be an acceptable alternative, despite me asking about them 2 years ago! So, back to the research drawing board with fingers crossed for a positive outcome! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 It is claimed that most fires extinguished by sprinklers required only one sprinkler, so not much water is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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