JohnMo Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 Real life black panels (310W), GSE integrated with slates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 3 hours ago, JohnMo said: No not saying that - but you have to careful you are being ripped off. I have solar (7kW) already and await a battery (13.6kWh) being installed. So I am all for Solar at the right cost. So what am I missing price-wise, did I only find the wrong teams? Of course, the easyPV route certainly is cheaper per kwh but you (seemed to) call all of them a rip off 1 hour ago, joth said: Last I looked at solar tiles (also GB sol) they cost 2x as much per m2 yet yield was 50% less per m2, so for a fixed roof size they give 1/4 of the kW/£ and half as much actual generation per year vs conventional panel. That alone is a none starter in my book. I guess the challenge is that your claim seems to be true for DIY systems (easyPV for example) but the cost the installers I ran across are charging basically overrides that claim in end cost. This, compared to a 'at cost' price I'm estimating for the solar tiles, most videos I see online look like even I could do it (err.. not safely.. 50 degree roof is scary.., but you get the point) so indeed a standard roofer could do it. 1 hour ago, joth said: Having used gb sol infinity I very much doubt the tiles are ideal for DIY install either, but a quick phone call to them would answer that Because they certainly will be honest about how hard their amazing product is in reality? But yea, I'll give them a call and see about infinity too. 1 hour ago, joth said: I think there's very few situations they aesthetic is really justified for the inefficiency. I agree, I guess all things being equal it starts to nudge things, and as you can see the tile price/kwh is actually cheaper than the two main installers... 1 hour ago, joth said: From what I know there wouldn't be many places your roof will be very visible from. The example photos above of GSE are misleadingly ugly as it's at a very close camera angle that in practice no one will ever be viewing a 3rd story roof from True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 30 minutes ago, puntloos said: So what am I missing price-wise, did I only find the wrong teams? Of course, the easyPV route certainly is cheaper per kwh but you (seemed to) call all of them a rip off Should be cheaper per kW for the solar panel and kWh for the battery. Basically your paying double what I did for your cheapest quoted. My 2 systems (two inverters, multiple isolation switches etc) fully installed, including paying VAT were on average £670 per kW. A big array should have a good economy of scale, so costs per kW reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 Just had a quick look, a 370W panel from City Plumbing is £72 plus vat. So 26 panels is about £2k, do the mounting system cost £14k? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Just had a quick look, a 370W panel from City Plumbing is £72 plus vat. So 26 panels is about £2k, do the mounting system cost £14k? OK that's fair then. I think what's happening is that if someone is confident they know what to get (I guess that's also "experience", which is not unreasonable to have a cost), they can just buy off indeed cityplumbing or tradesparky, and then just pop it on the roof. The quotes I got were all in the same ballpark so certainly something is up. It might have to do with my location (hertfordshire, that's where all the posh people live, no?) but also I guess the "cowboy" element is the challenge, people just asking random prices and hey it seems to work. Even easy-pv - which seems to be somewhat "cheaper" because you DIY is asking 140inc for the 370GBP Longi panel that's indeed 72 inc vat, but with a bit of luck I can push EasyPV site into giving me a selection for Longi 370 and go from there. of course one "difficult" part is to install something *in-roof* rather than on-roof. Anyone here have DIY experience with in-roof/GSE? Easy? Hard? Edited August 26, 2023 by puntloos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share Posted August 27, 2023 (edited) OK. So. I've worked out the best PV Panel in the UK, in value for money sense. Uh, it's @JohnMo's Longi 370WP - ha but my time was not fully wasted because instead I'm probably going for JA Solar JAM54s30 because it's the same basic size but much more power, or the JAM72S30-545 which is almost same price/sqm but much larger physically. Will have to check if it could fit a similar amount of panels. Here's all my research: Shop Brand Type SizeY SizeX Watt Price ex m2 GBP/kWh W/sqm PanelEst TotalW TotalCost TotalW/C tradesparky JA JAM54S30-410 1722 1134 410 80.76 1.95 197 801 21 8610 1695.96 5.076770679 easypv Euren Zebra 340 1684 1002 340 121 1.69 356 692 26 8840 3146 2.809917355 tradesparky JA JAM72S20-455 2112 1052 455 105 2.22 231 911 21 9555 2205 4.333333333 tradesparky JA JAM72S30-545 2278 1134 545 122 2.58 224 1059 21 11445 2562 4.467213115 tradesparky Trina TSM-425W 1762 1134 425 137 2 322 819 21 8925 2877 3.102189781 tradesparky canad CS6R-435H 1722 1134 435 122 1.95 280 801 21 9135 2562 3.56557377 tradesparky DMEG DM410M10 1708 1134 410 82 1.94 200 794 21 8610 1722 5 cityplumb Longi LR4-60HIH-370M 1755 1038 370 72.6 1.82 196 747 21 7770 1524.6 5.096418733 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTH-435M 1722 1134 435 112 1.95 257 801 21 9135 2352 3.883928571 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTB-425M 1722 1134 425 108 1.95 254 801 21 8925 2268 3.935185185 cityplumb Sharp Nujc400B 1722 1134 400 87 1.95 218 801 21 8400 1827 4.597701149 Edited August 27, 2023 by puntloos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share Posted August 27, 2023 Fun fact - JA Solar 410 is 300 inc on Amazon and 334 inc on ebay Those are some nice markups if you don't know where to look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share Posted August 27, 2023 Oh, cef.co.uk is even cheaper. Updated: Shop Brand Type SizeY SizeX Watt Price ex m2 GBP/kWh W/sqm PanelEst TotalW TotalCost TotalW/C tradesparky JA JAM54S30-410 1722 1134 410 80.76 1.95 197 801 21 8610 1695.96 5.08 easypv Euren Zebra 340 1684 1002 340 121 1.69 356 692 26 8840 3146 2.81 tradesparky JA JAM72S20-455 2112 1052 455 105 2.22 231 911 21 9555 2205 4.33 tradesparky JA JAM72S30-545 2278 1134 545 122 2.58 224 1059 21 11445 2562 4.47 tradesparky Trina TSM-425W 1762 1134 425 137 2 322 819 21 8925 2877 3.1 tradesparky canad CS6R-435H 1722 1134 435 122 1.95 280 801 21 9135 2562 3.57 tradesparky DMEG DM410M10 1708 1134 410 82 1.94 200 794 21 8610 1722 5 cityplumb Longi LR4-60HIH-370M 1755 1038 370 72.6 1.82 196 747 21 7770 1524.6 5.1 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTH-435M 1722 1134 435 112 1.95 257 801 21 9135 2352 3.88 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTB-425M 1722 1134 425 108 1.95 254 801 21 8925 2268 3.94 cityplumb Sharp Nujc400B 1722 1134 400 87 1.95 218 801 21 8400 1827 4.6 renogy renogi RNG-50D-SS-UK 581 509 50 54 0.3 1080 121 21 1050 1134 0.93 renugen jinko Eagle 315Wp 1650 992 315 77 1.64 244 671 26 8190 2002 4.09 renugen jinko Eagle 335Wp 1684 1020 335 87 1.72 260 704 26 8710 2262 3.85 cef longi LR5-54HIH-410M 1722 1134 410 80 1.95 195 801 21 8610 1680 5.13 cef trina DE09.08R 1762 1134 425 88 2 207 819 21 8925 1848 4.83 cef longi LR4-72HIH 2094 1038 450 90 2.17 200 891 21 9450 1890 5 cef longi LR5-66HIH-500M 2093 1134 500 106 2.37 212 973 21 10500 2226 4.72 Not Yet in UK longi LR5-72HBD-555M 2278 1134 550 140 2.58 255 1059 21 11550 2940 3.93 It's pretty clear that JA Solar and Longi are neck and neck. Effectively you want JA JAM72S<AA>-<BBB> or Longi LR5-<XXXXX><YYY>M for best value for money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 27, 2023 Author Share Posted August 27, 2023 did you know JA Solar already has a 630W panel? Right there on alibaba.. https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/JA-Solar-Panel-630W-N-type_1600925740930.html Weird how they calculate per watt, but it works out to 99 GBP per panel ex shipping, ex vat, ex bribing communist party so let's say 125/panel? Updated: Shop Brand Type SizeY SizeX Watt Price ex m2 GBP/kWh W/sqm PanelEst TotalW TotalCost TotalW/C URL tradesparky JA JAM54S30-410 1722 1134 410 80.76 1.95 197 801 21 8610 1695.96 5.08 easypv Euren Zebra 340 1684 1002 340 121 1.69 356 692 26 8840 3146 2.81 tradesparky JA JAM72S20-455 2112 1052 455 105 2.22 231 911 21 9555 2205 4.33 tradesparky JA JAM72S30-545 2278 1134 545 122 2.58 224 1059 21 11445 2562 4.47 tradesparky Trina TSM-425W 1762 1134 425 137 2 322 819 21 8925 2877 3.1 tradesparky canad CS6R-435H 1722 1134 435 122 1.95 280 801 21 9135 2562 3.57 tradesparky DMEG DM410M10 1708 1134 410 82 1.94 200 794 21 8610 1722 5 cityplumb Longi LR4-60HIH-370M 1755 1038 370 72.6 1.82 196 747 21 7770 1524.6 5.1 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTH-435M 1722 1134 435 112 1.95 257 801 21 9135 2352 3.88 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTB-425M 1722 1134 425 108 1.95 254 801 21 8925 2268 3.94 cityplumb Sharp Nujc400B 1722 1134 400 87 1.95 218 801 21 8400 1827 4.6 renogy renogi RNG-50D-SS-UK 581 509 50 54 0.3 1080 121 21 1050 1134 0.93 renugen jinko Eagle 315Wp 1650 992 315 77 1.64 244 671 26 8190 2002 4.09 renugen jinko Eagle 335Wp 1684 1020 335 87 1.72 260 704 26 8710 2262 3.85 cef longi LR5-54HIH-410M 1722 1134 410 80 1.95 195 801 21 8610 1680 5.13 cef trina DE09.08R 1762 1134 425 88 2 207 819 21 8925 1848 4.83 cef longi LR4-72HIH 2094 1038 450 90 2.17 200 891 21 9450 1890 5 cef longi LR5-66HIH-500M 2093 1134 500 106 2.37 212 973 21 10500 2226 4.72 Not Yet in UK longi LR5-72HBD-555M 2278 1134 550 140 2.58 255 1059 21 11550 2940 3.93 Alibaba JA JAM72D42 2465 1134 630 125 2.8 198 1146 21 13230 2625 5.04 2249 USD OK I should go to bed. Sorry for many posts, but buildhub doesn't let me edit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 Remember to check the max amps and voltage of each string doesn't exceed what the inverter can allow. Big panels need careful selection of inverters as the amps can be high. data for the 410W JA panels - a series string volts increases and amps remains the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted August 27, 2023 Share Posted August 27, 2023 13 hours ago, puntloos said: I guess the challenge is that your claim seems to be true for DIY systems (easyPV for example) but the cost the installers I ran across are charging basically overrides that claim in end cost My 2x cost and 0.5x efficiency was based solely on this is what GB sol told me when I spoke to them, and was for the installed price of tiles vs infinity full roof of solar. This was 4 years ago so prices may have changed Also: - their infinity roof is quite poor kW/m2 so tiles may come out even worse when compared to modern high efficiency panels - they were very clear in saying infinity roof can only be installed by their own installation team (sister company), so if there's any challenges at all with DIY installing the tiles I'm sure they'd be very honest and direct it saying so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) Updates: 1/ I made a mistake in my spreadsheet calculating the watt/sqm, but thankfully the final 'value for money' column and therefore the conclusions stand. Here's the corrected one: Shop Brand Type SizeY SizeX Watt Price ex m2 W/GBP W/sqm PanelEst TotalW TotalCost URL Alibaba jingsun JAM132D-710 2384 1303 710 126 3.11 5.63 229 18 12780 2268 2285 GBP cef longi LR5-54HIH-410M 1722 1134 410 80 1.95 5.13 210 21 8610 1680 cityplumb Longi LR4-60HIH-370M 1755 1038 370 72.6 1.82 5.1 203 21 7770 1524.6 tradesparky JA JAM54S30-410 1722 1134 410 80.76 1.95 5.08 210 21 8610 1695.96 Alibaba JA JAM72D42 2465 1134 630 125 2.8 5.04 225 18 11340 2250 2249 USD tradesparky DMEG DM410M10 1708 1134 410 82 1.94 5 212 26 10660 2132 cef longi LR4-72HIH 2094 1038 450 90 2.17 5 207 21 9450 1890 cef trina DE09.08R 1762 1134 425 88 2 4.83 213 21 8925 1848 cef longi LR5-66HIH-500M 2093 1134 500 106 2.37 4.72 211 21 10500 2226 cityplumb Sharp Nujc400B 1722 1134 400 87 1.95 4.6 205 21 8400 1827 tradesparky JA JAM72S30-545 2278 1134 545 122 2.58 4.47 211 21 11445 2562 tradesparky JA JAM72S20-455 2112 1052 455 105 2.22 4.33 205 21 9555 2205 renugen jinko Eagle 315Wp 1650 992 315 77 1.64 4.09 192 26 8190 2002 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTB-425M 1722 1134 425 108 1.95 3.94 218 21 8925 2268 Not Yet in UK longi LR5-72HBD-555M 2278 1134 550 140 2.58 3.93 213 21 11550 2940 cityplumb Longi LR5-54HTH-435M 1722 1134 435 112 1.95 3.88 223 21 9135 2352 renugen jinko Eagle 335Wp 1684 1020 335 87 1.72 3.85 195 26 8710 2262 tradesparky canad CS6R-435H 1722 1134 435 122 1.95 3.57 223 21 9135 2562 tradesparky Trina TSM-425W 1762 1134 425 137 2 3.1 213 21 8925 2877 easypv Euren Zebra 340 1684 1002 340 121 1.69 2.81 201 26 8840 3146 renogy renogi RNG-50D-SS-UK 581 509 50 54 0.3 0.93 169 21 1050 1134 An important thing to notice therefore is that the W/SQM is surprisingly similar for all these cells. Only that jingsun on at the top seems to be an outlier and ha, I am not sure I trust those. W/GBP is the column to pay attention to, and that still says that longi is probably the best value for money, JA not far behind. It might matter to you which panels barely fit, and which ones barely don't fit if your roof dimensions are teetering on the edge of fitting just-one-more-panel, like mine. Yep. 2/ I noticed that while GSE seems pretty common, I believe it has some limitations that I find a bit annoying It has fixed tray sizes so uncommon panels won't fit, or you will be using more space than you need It does not allow you to combine horizontal and vertical trays, at least they won't be nicely connected. Perhaps Renusol ISSE is more flexible but I cant seem to ind anyone selling them. Tradesparky does have _some_ renusol stuff but I think it's missing that ISSE stuff again. Edited August 28, 2023 by puntloos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 Here's the difference between using the larger panels and the 'standard' panels: Mixing Portrait+Landscape, 450M (Big - 2094x1038): 10800W Landscape only, 450M (Big - 2094x1038): 9900W Mixing Portrait+Landscape, 410M (Standard - 1722x1133): 9840W Portrait Only 410M (Standard - 1722x1133): 9430W All in all even the 'standard portrait' approach is not terrible, and there are good tolerances around obstructions, windows etc. Perhaps I should just stick to standard portrait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 Obvious question is why do you have to fill your roof, if your not careful it will just look like the dogs dinner - a mess. Are you just trying to be too greedy? If it's not symmetrical and balanced it's not going to look right. What about 2 rows of 450W in landscape under the roof windows, that would give 16 panels or 7.2kW. Adding more may sound good - but if your sketches are anything to go by, it looks a real mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Obvious question Nothing is obvious for an amateur, I appreciate you taking the time for this! 20 minutes ago, JohnMo said: is why do you have to fill your roof, if your not careful it will just look like the dogs dinner - a mess. Are you just trying to be too greedy? If it's not symmetrical and balanced it's not going to look right. What about 2 rows of 450W in landscape under the roof windows, that would give 16 panels or 7.2kW. Well, as mentioned the landscape ones are too big, there are no GSE trays for this. (which brings us back to the discussion if one needs GSE at all... 20 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Adding more may sound good - but if your sketches are anything to go by, it looks a real mess. Other than some of the guiding lines it actually is symmetrical, no? Here's a bit more tidy version: Here's a real picture that's "curving around a window'.. I'm not sure if it's "ugly" or "okay" but this roof is pretty far off the ground so I'm not sure it'll be too horrible.. And for what it's worth it's pretty similar to a design we got from a professional installer, who is proposing 30,000 for this one. (ignore the panels on the flat roof) Edited August 28, 2023 by puntloos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, puntloos said: pretty similar to a design we got from a professional installer, All nicely symmetrical, except the one landscape panel, which I would omit. I take it they are smaller panels also 5 minutes ago, puntloos said: Here's a bit more tidy version Would suspect you are too close to the edge on the outbound corners, because you need tiles for the ridge tile to sit on and have correct support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) I may have missed this, but can you connect ~10 kWp, is easy with 3 phase but then that introduces self consumption challenges. Side question, how thick are the roof battens and the tiles? Edited August 28, 2023 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 3 hours ago, SteamyTea said: I may have missed this, but can you connect ~10 kWp, is easy with 3 phase but then that introduces self consumption challenges. Side question, how thick are the roof battens and the tiles? Forticrete minislate on battens and counter battens Air breather membrane Klober Permo or similar 100mm Celotex or similar PIR insulation 197mm truss chord as per engineers' design 200mm Earthwool/Glasswool insulation fill in between Vapour barrier membrane 25mm air gap 12.5mm plasterboard finished with 3mm skim and paint with the minislate: Dimensions Length : 270mm. Hanging length : 243mm. Width : 495mm. Cover width : 470mm. Pitch : 22.5° to 29° pitch. 30° to 70° pitch. Batten size : 38mm x 25mm for spans up to 450mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 28, 2023 Author Share Posted August 28, 2023 (edited) One more update. Here's my final math: Item Brand Model count Power TotalPower Cost exVat Total Total if 32 panel Panel JA JAM54S-30-420-GR-BF 23 420 9660 83 £1,909 £2,656 Inverter Solax X3-HYBRID-G4-12.0 1 12 12 1953 £1,953 £1,953 Battery Pylontech force 14.21 Pylontech force 14.21 1 14.21 14.21 4397 £4,397 £4,397 Mounting kit GSE mounting kit GSE mounting kit 23 £98.00 £2,254 £3,136.00 Subtotal Mat £10,513 £12,142 OH/P £841 £971 Install est 4000 £4,000 £5,565.00 Total ex VAT £15,354 £18,678 Sooo that seems to be half the price of my faithful installers and much better 'side gear' - 14kW battery, 12kW inverter. That's all from https://www.itstechnologies.shop/products/420w-mono-perc-half-cell-mbb-black-frame-gr-mc4-solar-panel - they have all components I need, and that fit together (some inverters only want to work with their own brand battery etc). Might even get a small discount for doing it all together. Edited August 28, 2023 by puntloos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jimbo Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 `So , am i right in thinking that the GSE mounting kit, (is that trays for in roof ?) is more expensive than the actual solar panels ? You have done a lot of work, which will be useful for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 I bought my GSE trays from ITS, they were £25 each. I would double check your quantity of the sundry bits from GSE. £98 for each panel doesn't sound right. Here is my list of bits for 10 panels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 29, 2023 Author Share Posted August 29, 2023 Basicaly GSE is now one kit - https://www.itstechnologies.shop/products/gse-in-roof-mounting-system-portrait?_pos=1&_psq=gse&_ss=e&_v=1.0 - 98 GBP. It is kinda outrageous that it's more expensive than a panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 (edited) Not here this panel is £29. But all parts available separately https://www.tradesparky.com/solarsparky/mounting/gse-integration/mounting-plates-frames/gse-halfport16501135-1610-1800x1130-1135?gclid=CjwKCAjwrranBhAEEiwAzbhNtYXjvlOJ8rSRX3slCB3ccQdXHEAiGgPUjaA15HDbvyw4lMClpprwBxoCH7oQAvD_BwE Edited August 29, 2023 by JohnMo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puntloos Posted August 29, 2023 Author Share Posted August 29, 2023 8 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Not here this panel is £29. But all parts available separately https://www.tradesparky.com/solarsparky/mounting/gse-integration/mounting-plates-frames/gse-halfport16501135-1610-1800x1130-1135?gclid=CjwKCAjwrranBhAEEiwAzbhNtYXjvlOJ8rSRX3slCB3ccQdXHEAiGgPUjaA15HDbvyw4lMClpprwBxoCH7oQAvD_BwE https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/5178047-half-portrait-frame-1650-1135 22.27 😃 But I still frankly haven't heard a good reason why to do GSE in the first place - what's your take on that discussion? Piece of plastic, nail the panels through it, Bob's your uncle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted August 29, 2023 Share Posted August 29, 2023 8 minutes ago, puntloos said: Piece of plastic, nail the panels through it, Bob's your uncle? You could - I wouldn't - it's a bodge. GSE panels have correct drainage and ventilation, cable routing and wind load design. They stop the ingress of water, and once you get your head around the install, very simple to install. If the panel flies off in high wind gse get the blame, bodge job you do. PV panel is basically a pane of glass in a frame, if it hits from a roof, leave that to the imagination. The GSE panel is £30, fixing and trim piece cheap also. Or don't integrate, install slates or tiles and roof bars and hooks. Do it properly once. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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