Beginning of the end for MCS?

[JamesPa]

5 minutes ago, Huckleberrys said:

The trouble with this though is that heat pumps will not be right for every house though, especially retrofitting on older properties. I have advised as many customers against them as I have fitted new ones in other properties that are suitable

What properties are heat pumps not suitable for and why?

 

Serious question, there is currently no known mass market alternative so far as I am aware, and we have run out of time to find one, so, as far as I can see, we must to find a way to make it work.  Mitigating climate change induced disaster won't be penalty-free.

 

District heating schemes are of course an alternative in some cases but it's going to take a major mindset change for them to take off.

Edited August 16, 2023 by JamesPa

[JamesPa]

37 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

What properties are heat pumps not suitable for and why?

 

Serious question, there is currently no known mass market alternative so far as I am aware, and we have run out of time to find one, so, as far as I can see, we must to find a way to make it work.  Mitigating climate change induced disaster won't be penalty-free.

 

District heating schemes are of course an alternative in some cases but it's going to take a major mindset change for them to take off.

PS to the above - perhaps you mean 'not currently cost effective' as opposed to 'not suitable'.  That then becomes a temporary and political problem to solve not a permanent and technical one, given that the price of energy is politically determined.

Edited August 16, 2023 by JamesPa

[Huckleberrys]

In rural areas a lot of traditional buildings, poorly insulated. But yet you are correct...not cost effective. I am not going to install a heat pump for a customer which won't heat their property as it is leaking heat faster than you can put it in. 

[JamesPa]

1 minute ago, Huckleberrys said:

I am not going to install a heat pump for a customer which won't heat their property as it is leaking heat faster than you can put it in.

If its leaking heat that fast surely some improvement is possible with insulation in at least most cases and would pay dividends in cost terms.  In the limit you can get heat pumps with almost any capacity!  That said I wouldn't necessarily advocate installing one now in this circumstance, but at the same time its a myth that heat pumps cant heat larger/leakier buildings, they can and do.  However I grant that the timing/sequencing might be wrong at present.

 

Fossil fuels have to go, that's just how it is.  Heat pumps appear to be the only realistic answer for domestic heating in almost all cases.  The longer we leave it, the more difficult the fixes become - had we been serious about climate change 30 years ago (when scientists told us more or less exactly what was very likely to happen, which turned out to be right) we wouldn't have such a tough time now!  

 

 

[DanDee]

15 minutes ago, Huckleberrys said:

I am not going to install a heat pump for a customer which won't heat their property as it is leaking heat faster than you can put it in.

Can we agree it's a bit pointless to talk about HP not being suitable when talking about a house that is leaking that much?

It's a bit aberrant.

That house would have bigger issues before talking about the HP, and if you only talk about them when a HP is involved, then you failed at it already.

[Huckleberrys]

I wouldn't and couldn't install something for a customer that is going to cost them more to run though! I'd be the worst in the world in their eyes. 

 

I agree insulation and improvement to their homes is the key but when a boiler breaks and they need a replacement they don't always seem keen to completely remodel the inside of their houses!

[JohnMo]

53 minutes ago, Huckleberrys said:

I am not going to install a heat pump for a customer which won't heat their property as it is leaking heat faster than you can put it in

Then the heat pump you are installing is too small!

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

44 minutes ago, Huckleberrys said:

I wouldn't and couldn't install something for a customer that is going to cost them more to run though! I'd be the worst in the world in their eyes. 

 

I agree insulation and improvement to their homes is the key but when a boiler breaks and they need a replacement they don't always seem keen to completely remodel the inside of their houses!

Isn't the issue not the heat demand of the house, but the size of the emmiters? 

 

You could have a house with 20kw of heat demand, but if the emmiters are sized so that could be supplied at 35C flow temp, your costs would be lower than gas. 

 

Obviously, the lower the heat demand, the smaller and cheaper the emitters can be and the lower the running costs. Fabric first and all that. 

 

But there exists, in the eyes of the public, the idea that heatpump can only work in tiny super insulated homes.

 

A friend is doing major renovations. It's a big victorian solid wall semi. 

 

They've been told their house is too big for a HP and they'd need 2. So they are going with a gas boiler - not actually a bad decision. 

 

*but* the idea that they can never have a HP and will be using a gas (and later hydrogen) boiler means they are paying out the new parts of the heating system with small high temp rads. Some of that is aesthetics - they have the old fashioned cast rads for looks and they have put underfloor in the new floor area. But some of it is driven by not considering that low flow temp heating will ever work for them. 

 

So when they do need to switch to a HP at some point, the emmiters (and some pipework) will need redoing. 

 

And I'm pretty sure their house could be heated with a mid teens  (say 15kw) unit which are readily available. 

[Huckleberrys]

Nobody wants a 3m wide triple panel radiator on their wall though!

[TonyT]

Factor in if you don’t use gas for anything else, you are saving on the daily standing charge if you get the gas supply disconnected, easily another £180 a year in my case.

[TonyT]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberrys said:

Nobody wants a 3m wide triple panel radiator on their wall though!

I’ve got a 2 metre one, hidden nicely behind a bespoke radiator cabinet.

Ready for a heat pump when the gas boiler breaks down and isn’t cost effective to repair. Serviced last week, now 6 years old so it’s a while away.

 

will replace another radiator next year when we redecorate another room,  and that’s me heat pump temp ready.

a few more insulation projects to reduce demand and I should be good to go..

[JamesPa]

6 minutes ago, TonyT said:

I’ve got a 2 metre one, hidden nicely behind a bespoke radiator cabinet.

Ready for a heat pump when the gas boiler breaks down and isn’t cost effective to repair. Serviced last week, now 6 years old so it’s a while away.

 

will replace another radiator next year when we redecorate another room,  and that’s me heat pump temp ready.

a few more insulation projects to reduce demand and I should be good to go..

Thats the way to do it, anticipate the inevitable, make as many changes as possible at a convenient point in time.

 

Alternatively stick your head in the sand and expect MUCH bigger bills, migration like you have never even imagined before, wild fires, flooded cities, societal breakdown and dictatorship.  The political effects of climate change are, in many ways, more scary than the physical ones.

 

Oh and re rad size, what about fan convectors?  OK you might not want them in a bedroom but in the living areas whats the real issue?  Are your fridge, TV or for that matter your kids silent?

[DougMLancs]

My brother in law has a 1900’s end terrace in Yorkshire, solid walls- only needed to change out two of the old finless rads when they had their ASHP fitted for a 45C flow temp.

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, Huckleberrys said:

Nobody wants a 3m wide triple panel radiator on their wall though!

true enough, sometimes it would be a bit obtrusive, though it is very much context dependent. What people find acceptable varies.  People used to rip out those "old fashioned" cast iron rads for modern slimline steel panel rads.

 

Now they're sticking the same rads back in as "period" (though period would be a coal fire, jumper and TB!)

 

Fan convectors and fan assisted are an option. Smiths do a fan assisted unit that gives roughly the same 1.4kw at 40C that the same sized (1200x400) k22 rad gives at 75C. Looks pretty similar too....

 

[JamesPa]

9 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

true enough, sometimes it would be a bit obtrusive, though it is very much context dependent. What people find acceptable varies.  People used to rip out those "old fashioned" cast iron rads for modern slimline steel panel rads.

 

Now they're sticking the same rads back in as "period" (though period would be a coal fire, jumper and TB!)

 

Fan convectors and fan assisted are an option. Smiths do a fan assisted unit that gives roughly the same 1.4kw at 40C that the same sized (1200x400) k22 rad gives at 75C. Looks pretty similar too....

 

Alledgedly the smiths ones are cr*p.  You pay about 500+ for supposedly better ones.  I'm guessing the components are sub 50 in total.

[Beelbeebub]

i have no idea about the Smiths quality.  There are a couple of other similar products, mainly italian.

 

Quiet fan convector rads at a reasonable price would be a key component of the HP roll out.  It would be nice to have a choice and units tailored to the UK market (sizes, style etc)

 

The use of a variable speed fan (easy these days) also means the output for a given flow temp and rate can be varied.  This means you could run WC at full flow and the radiators would reduce their output if they detected the room was overheating but simply reducing the fan speed.  Likewise, at night they could ensure quiet operation by dropping the fan speed but increasing the flow temp to compensate (albeit at the cost of efficiency) 

 

They could even have a direct electric heater element built in so they could act as the backup/extreme cold heater. 

[ToughButterCup]

On 15/08/2023 at 22:14, JohnMo said:

I've applied let's see how it goes.

 

This is how it's gone for me @JohnMo

 

 

One small step for Octopus - feels like they haven't thought this through yet. 

[JohnMo]

Sounds like tell the press and social media then think about. There is absolutely nothing to trial if the array is G98 or whatever approved, it's no different from an MCS install.

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

i have no idea about the Smiths quality.  There are a couple of other similar products, mainly italian.

 

Quiet fan convector rads at a reasonable price would be a key component of the HP roll out.  It would be nice to have a choice and units tailored to the UK market (sizes, style etc)

 

The use of a variable speed fan (easy these days) also means the output for a given flow temp and rate can be varied.  This means you could run WC at full flow and the radiators would reduce their output if they detected the room was overheating but simply reducing the fan speed.  Likewise, at night they could ensure quiet operation by dropping the fan speed but increasing the flow temp to compensate (albeit at the cost of efficiency) 

 

They could even have a direct electric heater element built in so they could act as the backup/extreme cold heater. 

All of that agreed.  They have the potential to be a very simple solution for difficult living areas and, because the fan speed is easily controlled, come very close to auto balancing for room temp, which is whats really needed.  Of course A2A is really just another fan convector so it does beg the question...

 

I will need one, maybe two and will probably end up buying the Mitsubishi ones made in Italy.  This will be an interesting part of the journey.  Prices need to drop though to become mainstream.