Interesting website on 'Wallrock Thermal Liner'

[MAB]

Interesting website linked below on some good results upgrading 'cold walls' in older properties with 'Wallrock Thermal Liner' :-

https://www.chrismarner.uk/

[Big Jimbo]

Just had a look and read of the guys site. Very interesting. Thanks for posting. It would be nice to see some external images to see what difference it made to the wall outside.

[nostos156]

The calculations suggest that a paltry 3mm of basically fluffy wool insulation wouldn't do bugger all to the actual insulation of a house, but anecdotes seem to suggest otherwise.

 

That being said, I wonder how this stuff takes fixing things to the wall on it. Presumably it dimples a fair bit and would look naff?

[ProDave]

We had a variation of this in the old 1930's semi I used to own.  That was 9" solid brick walls no cavity.  The stuff used there was very thin polystyrene on a roll, fitted with wallpaper paste and then papered over.

 

It did make the wall feel warmer to the touch than other bare bits of wall and it seemed to stop condensation.  I doubt it made much of a difference to the heating bills.

[Big Jimbo]

Would be great, if it did make a considerable difference. Thinking of my daughters 1882 little place. Solid walls, and bloody freezing.

[saveasteading]

I recall wallpaper made of eps or with a facing of it. It was good compared to nothing, in reducing condensation  and to touch,  if you were sitting next to it.

On old solid walls we have always gone for an inner stud, then either an insulated board or insulate the new void, of both. You lose floor space of course  but the comfort and fuel saving are probably more valuable.

[saveasteading]

There was a man at ecobuild about 10 years ago, promoting nano paint.

He had great claims for it. A single coat to the inside of walls and the heat particles couldn't escape. The gaps in the paint structure were so tiny that energy couldn't get through it.

 

The world's energy  problems would be resolved at a  (brush) stroke by this paint, only available from him. I asked for technical backup and he gave me a leaflet that confirmed that some people thought it was great.

 

There was "proof" by way of a radiator circuit with partial painting. The pipe with nano paint was much cooler  ie insulated. I didn't work out why this seemed so good yet obviously couldn't be.

Perhaps a bh boffin can enlighten me.

 

If only! An instant upgrade for all old buildings.

[Big Jimbo]

I know that nano tech has moved on a huge amount from say 20 years ago. I know that they now have Nano's that when entered into the body will be able to remove some nasty bits. i questioned how we can make machines so small. They are not machines, they are organisms that are grown. The breakthrough will come when they work out how to coat them to stop our bodies rejecting them. Might still be a way off, but eventually...... There is that other type of paper that has some form of weaved metal central section to combat damp.

[nostos156]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

We had a variation of this in the old 1930's semi I used to own.  That was 9" solid brick walls no cavity.  The stuff used there was very thin polystyrene on a roll, fitted with wallpaper paste and then papered over.

 

It did make the wall feel warmer to the touch than other bare bits of wall and it seemed to stop condensation.  I doubt it made much of a difference to the heating bills.

 

This stuff seems a fair bit better than the polystyrene stuff. The guy writing the blog claims a 25% difference in heating bills.

 

They do say they first few mm of insulation is the most important in making a difference vs nothing at all.

[SteamyTea]

12 minutes ago, nostos156 said:

They do say they first few mm of insulation is the most important in making a difference vs nothing at all.

That comes down to how you want to measure it.

Think insulation can look fantastic when expressed as a percentage.

 

[Iceverge]

As this is applied with a healthy dose of adhesive I wouldn't be surprised if it contributed significantly to the airtightness of the wall which would materially affect heat loss and thermal comfort. 

 

There's probably easier ways mind you. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

7 hours ago, nostos156 said:

The guy writing the blog claims a 25% difference in heating bills.

1. People like to think that what they have done/ bought/ supported has performed well.

 "That layer of insulation I put up makes  a difference.  Let's turn down the heating"

 

2. Perhaps the immediate effect of an adjacent wall being slightly warmer and less damp, makes a seated person feel more comfortable, and turn down the heating.

 

[nostos156]

3 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

1. People like to think that what they have done/ bought/ supported has performed well.

 "That layer of insulation I put up makes  a difference.  Let's turn down the heating"

 

2. Perhaps the immediate effect of an adjacent wall being slightly warmer and less damp, makes a seated person feel more comfortable, and turn down the heating.

 

 

If you had read the blog however, he was very thorough in how he calculated everything. Hell, he bought a thermal gun to see exactly what temperature the walls were at vs those he hadn't done. The difference wasn't massive, but it was there.

 

It's far more believable than the anecdotal reviews.

Edited August 3, 2023 by nostos156

[saveasteading]

5 minutes ago, nostos156 said:

far more believable than the anecdotal reviews.

But yet I don't believe it.  It isn't complex theory that 2mm of eps won't make much difference.

 

Comfort, yes. Warmer to the touch, yes. Significant heat barrier, no.

 

So assuming the gun was used correctly and accurate  (and same time of day etc) we are looking for another explanation, which may be interesting.

 

Theory 1.  the untreated wall was damp and the evaporation was making the surface cooler. The treated wall is sealed.

[nostos156]

6 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

But yet I don't believe it.  It isn't complex theory that 2mm of eps won't make much difference.

 

Comfort, yes. Warmer to the touch, yes. Significant heat barrier, no.

 

So assuming the gun was used correctly and accurate  (and same time of day etc) we are looking for another explanation, which may be interesting.

 

Theory 1.  the untreated wall was damp and the evaporation was making the surface cooler. The treated wall is sealed.

 

He's used it multiple times in a few houses, so I don't think that theory works out either unless he was somehow coming across the same damp walls every time.

Edited August 3, 2023 by nostos156

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, nostos156 said:

the same damp walls every time.

aren't they, by default, a bit damp?

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, nostos156 said:

Hell, he bought a thermal gun to see exactly what temperature the walls were at vs those he hadn't done

Different emissivity value maybe?

 

Does amaze me that amateur 'inventor' can prove, with a thermometer, that the well established laws of thermodynamics are wrong.

Temperature is not energy.

Edited August 3, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Iceverge]

I've been playing with the Ubakus U-Value calculator again. 

 

Adding 3mm of EPS to a solid brick 215mm wall takes the U-Value from 2.54 to 2.05W/m2K and increases the internal surface temperature by about 2⁰. 

 

This is about a 20% reduction in conductive heat loss.

 

The elephant in the room however is a very thin 22mm EPS backed plasterboard (12.5+9.5mm) would have reduced the U value to 1.3W/m2K or  almost 50% reduction of heat loss. 

 

I suspect there is actually a notable improvement in the performance of the wall with this product but it is only because of the very poor starting point.

 

Just goes to show, the first mm of insulation is the most important. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nostos156]

21 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Just goes to show, the first mm of insulation is the most important. 

 

Precisely what I said earlier. There is no breaking of thermodynamics here. The key difference is the majority of people using this product are going to be using it for old plaster walls that have zero insulation. It'll make a notable difference there if that's the only solution you have and don't have the skill/money to rip it down and insulate properly. Hell, slapping down thick lining paper and finishing is much easier than overboarding with the EPS plasterboard as you don't have to tape and skim either.

Edited August 3, 2023 by nostos156

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

the first mm of insulation is the most important. 

Because without the first mm there wouldn't be any at all.