Gas boiler lobby obstructing heatpumps

[Beelbeebub]

Ok subsidy idea napkin calculation.

 

Average house uses 3,000kwh of elec

12,000kwh of gas 

 

Let's say elec.costs 30p and gas 10p

 

So somebody pays 

 

💡3000 X 0.3 = £1000

🔥12000 X 0.1 £1200

£2200 total (ignore standing charges etc)

 

If they switched to a HP that was only 2.25 SCOP (my magic break even for CO2)

 

💡3000 X 0.3 = £1000

🔥5333 X 0.3 = £1600

£2600 total.

 

the subsidy system records they delivered 12000kwh of heat. It calculates the cost difference assuming 2.25 CoP and comes up with £400, which is deducted from the bill leaving them paying no more.

 

As a side note the £5k current subsidy would pay for over 10 years at this rate.

 

If the HPminstalm has gone badly, the home owner still only gets the £400 calculated assuming 2.25 but even if it was only achieving 2.0 their bill would be £2400, with the £400 subsidy. An extra £200. Not great but not catastrophic.

 

On the flip side if they manage to get their SCOP to 3.5 their bill will be £1600, in effect giving them a boost. 

 

The above calculation is shown on the utility bill, including the SCOP as calculated by heat delivered divided by electricity consumed.  So the user can see if they are beating the assumed SCOP (2.25).  If they aren't they can use the experience of running the system to identify what is causing them to undershoot.  Say the crap cylinder they didn't replace! (😂) and replace it with the lure of pocketing the subsidy themselves.

 

over the life of the program (say 10 years) the assumed SCOP would move towards the point where the subsidy was effectively zero, giving a soft landing for the billl payers 

 

[TonyT]

4 hours ago, sharpener said:

Total rubbish solution. CoP of 1. Increases maximum demand. In what scenario would you do this? Might as well have instantaneous water heaters everywhere. My 80A supply has DNO approval for an HP only, not any supplementary heating.

Cylinder Heated at night on off peak electricity giving the heat pump a well earned rest

[Beelbeebub]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

New cylinder is a big cost adder to upfront costs

Yes, plus the buggeration factor if the install isn't easy (and they often aren't)  

[JamesPa]

2 hours ago, DanDee said:

So where is the middle ground? Keep your cylinder but tweak the coil or use an external HEX to match the HP. 

I get the second, and to me it seems the (almost) ideal solution, it just needs to be productized so installers/the industry accept it. 

 

How do you do the first without cutting the cylinder up?

[Beelbeebub]

Just watching a BBC documentary on HPs, have to say not doing the cause any good 

 

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0fzltvd

 

Features an 18k install, 6 guys for a week! Described as "average".

 

It looks like a full.monty job basically a full replumb replace all rads, new pipework, possibly even new windows!

 

It does show why HP's installs aren't picking up, at the moment it's a boutique high end product.

 

The knock on is it's seen as elitist, not for everyone solution and is easy fodder for any politician who wants to be seen as "on the side of the working man"

Edited August 4, 2023 by Beelbeebub

[JohnMo]

6 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

How do you do the first without cutting the cylinder up?

Do it the same way as a Willis heater is plumbed into a cylinder. Tee into the bottom feed pipe and top outlet pipe. Small pump at bottom of cylinder pushing through PHE, heat pump on the other side in counter flow configuration.

 

Edit reread the post ignore doesn't answer question

Edited August 4, 2023 by JohnMo

[JamesPa]

16 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

The knock on is it's seen as elitist, not for everyone solution and is easy fodder for any politician who wants to be seen as "on the side of the working man"

I made a similar point earlier. 

 

Climate change is a gift to the right wing extreme (and not so extreme).  The changes that must be made to combat it cost 'the working man' and these are promoted by 'intellectual elites'.  The inevitable migration of communities affected will be weaponised by fascists.  The elites will be protected by wealth and everyone else, especially those that their ruthless lies are aimed at influencing, will suffer.  Just read the headlines in the right wing press if you doubt this.

 

Climate change is a threat to democracy as much, if not more, as it is to the environment and lifestyle.  You only have to read the headlines in the right wing press to see the way this could well go.

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by JamesPa

[HughF]

Meanwhile, over in air-air land….

 

This would heat your average terraced house no problem at all… sunamp for the dhw, job done.

 

 

[JohnMo]

14 minutes ago, HughF said:

Meanwhile, over in air-air land….

Or possibly the "real world" this is the real solution to the mass roll out of heat pumps. Easy to install, not expensive, no piss poor CoP to worry about. Competitive price wise with a normal boiler.

 

Issue is general public perception, they think Aircon, expensive to run and cooling only.

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Or possibly the "real world" this is the real solution to the mass roll out of heat pumps. Easy to install, not expensive, no piss poor CoP to worry about. Competitive price wise with a normal boiler.

 

Issue is general public perception, they think Aircon, expensive to run and cooling only.

A2A has real potential if a few hurdles can be overcome.

 

FGas certification - we need either low cost, effort certification so ordinary plumbers can add it to their offering with minimal outlay.  Or we need DIYable systems.  The issue is wemeither have FGasses like r32 where the problem will be DIYers venting it left right and center or hydrocarbons like r290.wjere there may be issues with safety.

 

That said, r290.has been used been used in Chinese and Indian markets for a decade and I don't think there has been a major issue.

 

R744 (CO2) has potential but I don't think anyone makes A2A splits. Not suremif it's a technical thing or a demand thing.

 

 

[JamesPa]

4 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

A2A has real potential if a few hurdles can be overcome.

 

FGas certification - we need either low cost, effort certification so ordinary plumbers can add it to their offering with minimal outlay.  Or we need DIYable systems.  The issue is wemeither have FGasses like r32 where the problem will be DIYers venting it left right and center or hydrocarbons like r290.wjere there may be issues with safety.

 

That said, r290.has been used been used in Chinese and Indian markets for a decade and I don't think there has been a major issue.

 

R744 (CO2) has potential but I don't think anyone makes A2A splits. Not suremif it's a technical thing or a demand thing.

 

 

Is there any reason why gas safe plumbers can't do R290.  Isn't it just propane, which surely at least some do for both commercial and domestic where mains gas is not available (eg off grid or mobile vans, boats etc).  Have I got this wrong.

 

Maybe the caravan and boat plumbing industry has a new lease of life?

Edited August 5, 2023 by JamesPa

[Beelbeebub]

The development of a really easy to DIY/handyman level ecosystem for A2A would be crucial.

 

If you could get trained on fitting a unit on a.£200nday course, the equipment was a few hundred £ and the units were £2-3k, plus relaxed planning.

 

It would take off.

 

The priority would be for electric only properties, you would get an instant cost saving and you can leave the DHW as is for later. Maybe when the appropriate cylinders become available.  That's a big market.

[Beelbeebub]

8 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Is there any reason why gas safe plumbers can't do R290.  Isn't it just propane, which surely at least some do for both commercial and domestic where mains gas is not available (eg off grid or mobile vans, boats etc).  Have I got this wrong.

LPG I think.

 

If they just added it as an add on for gas safe qualified, like £100, an online course with a few videos and questions at the end.

 

Would be an easy way to "train up" the workforce.

[Beelbeebub]

Planning would need to change so sticking a (certified) box on the wall is totally allowed. The certified boxes would have already met noise standards etc.aybe lock off the cooling function to high 20's to prevent extra consumption form people running cooling too much.

 

Need to get aesthetic options out there, eg offer case colour options other than white (or just make them easy to spray paint, provide masks in the box for grilles etc). 

 

 

[JamesPa]

24 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

LPG I think.

So far as I can tell 'LPG' = either propane or butane.  The red bottles, typically 6-13kg, for boats and caravans are propane.  There is a separate lpg qualification, but it's advertised as being an easy conversion from gas safe.  

 

Doesn't sound like an insuperable problem and, AFAIK, A2A with its wide modulation ratio doesn't require accurate sizing.   In a commercial environment I've seen installers walk in, take a look at the room, decide on a unit, fit it, and you get a cop of 4 no problems.  Perhaps this is a more natural route for plumbers than A2W with its requirement for accurate sizing?

Edited August 5, 2023 by JamesPa

[HughF]

R290 a2a doesn’t require any certification iirc. As long as the refrigerant charge is sub 900grams.

 

Apart from the fact that the uk will end up looking like the back streets of Changhai, with a box hanging off the wall, I don’t think there’s anything holding the technology back apart from chronic lack of understanding by most people about how good they are.

[JamesPa]

19 minutes ago, HughF said:

Apart from the fact that the uk will end up looking like the back streets of Changhai, with a box hanging off the wall, I don’t think there’s anything holding the technology back apart from chronic lack of understanding by most people about how good they are.

That's a real issue, particularly for flats, terraces and rows of otherwise similar houses where multiple different units placed at different locations relative to the architectural features have the potential to look truly awful.

 

Having said that it's not necessarily insuperable with some intelligent thought.  Solving it however limits personal choice, puts prices up and most likely would end up requiring MCS or equivalent to 'guarantee' that the visual standards are met.  In fairness the same problem arises, in those locations, with a2w so we have to solve it or just suck up the changes in appearance.

 

Flats are more common in parts of continental Europe than here, and ashp installation is proceeding faster.  So it's not improbable others will show the way. 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by JamesPa

[HughF]

15 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

That's a real issue, particularly for flats, terraces and rows of otherwise similar houses where multiple different units placed at different locations relative to the architectural features have the potential to look truly awful.

 

Having said that it's not necessarily insuperable with some intelligent thought.  Solving it however limits personal choice, puts prices up and most likely would end up requiring MCS or equivalent to 'guarantee' that the visual standards are met.  In fairness the same problem arises, in those locations, with a2w so we have to solve it or just suck up the changes in appearance.

 

Flats are more common in parts of continental Europe than here, and ashp installation is proceeding faster.  So it's not improbable others will show the way. 

 

 

I’ve been spending a lot of time in Northern Europe for work this year. Air-air units installed on balconies of flats seem popular.

[Beelbeebub]

It's the visual aspect that's the problem, particularly for flats. The servicing issue when they are 7 floors up is not trivial either.  If the flats have balconys (as quite a lot of purpose built do, then that might be an option.

 

In the block I look after there are two stariwells next to each other with a party wall (was a Victorian spa, apparently they had seperate mirror wings for men and women including lobby and stairs!)I have wondered about placing the units in the stairwells (they are huge) with one stairwell "intake" and the other "exhaust". Would be very convenient for flats and servicing, no planning either.  Noise would be an issue, plus one stairwell would be warm and the other cold!

[HughF]

You can ignore servicing with air-air, they’re basically unserviceable. Run it till it breaks then install a new one utilising the same line set.

[Beelbeebub]

8 minutes ago, HughF said:

You can ignore servicing with air-air, they’re basically unserviceable. Run it till it breaks then install a new one utilising the same line set.

That's what worries me.

 

I don't mind so much if it was "just swap out the broken unit", but it seems swapping everything is the norm?

 

Still need access for swapping. Working at height can turn a 1 hour job into all day.

[JohnMo]

A2W also unserviceable, if they break.

[Beelbeebub]

8 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

A2W also unserviceable, if they break.

Yes,.but I meant the "head" units - for air 2 water those are UFH, radiators, maybe fan coils and can be swapped out with other brands, types etc 

 

If your one of your Daikin XYZ2GHP7J2PX (my god the model number system is opaque!) indoor unit dies, I don't want to have to replace it,.the other indoor units and the outdoor unit because getting a compatible replacement is tricky 

 

Especially if the outdoor unit is hard to access.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Beelbeebub

[SteamyTea]

Can get an 'evergreen' F-Gas course here, about a grand.

https://fgasregister.com/f-gas-training/

 

There is new legislation about the right to repair coming in.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56340077

 

The biggest issue, as usual in the UK, is planning law and implementation.

You can forget all the rest, until that is sorted, it will be impossible to install ASHPs in too many locations.

The Government has a target of 600k/year, but last year we installed 60k, bet most were on new developments.

[HughF]

F-gas course is 5 days and if you do c&g it never expires. I’m going to do it later this year.