MortarThePoint Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 Has anyone successfully claimed VAT on their energy storage battery or hear of it being done? Same goes for the inverter charger. Might wall mounted ones be more 'claimable'? I'd like a battery system and need to size it for expected ASHP demand, but probably something like 15 - 20kWh. That's 3 or 4 server rack batteries a charger and hybrid inverter (are they combined?) So probably looking at £6k+VAT. Would allow me to effectively use E7 electricity during the day when air temps are higher so COP better. I expect I would need to have an inverter capable of sustained 5kW to allow ASHP at full wack, lights and cooking. Options I'm considering: Fogstar 5.12kWh: https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/server-rack-batteries Fox ESS LV52: https://www.itstechnologies.shop/products/fox-ess-lv52-5-12kwh-48v-battery-module Pylon US5000: https://batteryfactory.co.uk/products/pylon-us5000-4-8kwh-li-ion-solar-battery-48v Premium Lithium system: https://premiumlithium.com/products/tripod Solis hybrid inverter: https://www.ginlong.com/global/inverter.html Useful resource: https://dcguy.co.uk/server-rack-battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 The batteries need to be purchased with the solar to be eligible for zero VAT iirc. I don't think you can claim that back if you purchased these in 2 separate transactions, but there may be a caveat if they came from 2 different suppliers and they're installed and commissioned together at the one address. I'd avoid the Pylontech batteries as I don't believe they are 'balanced charged'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: The batteries need to be purchased with the solar to be eligible for zero VAT iirc. I don't think you can claim that back if you purchased these in 2 separate transactions, but there may be a caveat if they came from 2 different suppliers and they're installed and commissioned together at the one address. I'd avoid the Pylontech batteries as I don't believe they are 'balanced charged'. My supplier sells solar storage retrofit with zero VAT and he'd better be right because the VAT inspectors are ruthless interrogators and punishers!!! I don't have a Pylontech battery but I would be shocked (forgive the pun) if they didn't have some form of balancing built into the BMS as it that would be a serious safety hazard. Edited July 14, 2023 by PhilT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted July 14, 2023 Share Posted July 14, 2023 I have 3 modules (10.65 kWh) of Pylontech Force L2 and am quite happy with them. They have balancing in the BMS and the difference between min and max voltage is typically 30 mV or less. I think you will need a lot of storage if you plan on driving the HP with it, ours is not sufficient by a long way. Another 10kWh would give about 30kWh of heat during the day, from memory the payback time using it for off-peak time shifting is about 6 years. And you would need a lot of PV to keep it charged. We have a Victron 5k Multiplus II GX inverter/charger, this is rated at 4kW continuous which is enough for all domestic loads inc cooking, but IMO with an HP you would need their 8k unit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 On 14/07/2023 at 09:33, PhilT said: My supplier sells solar storage retrofit with zero VAT and he'd better be right because the VAT inspectors are ruthless interrogators and punishers!!! I don't have a Pylontech battery but I would be shocked (forgive the pun) if they didn't have some form of balancing built into the BMS as it that would be a serious safety hazard. Yup. 👎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 https://solarenergyuk.org/resource/vat-on-solar-and-battery-storage/ Quote Batteries Batteries also qualify for 0% VAT in Great Britain if they are supplied as part of an installation with a qualifying material – in other words, a solar system. However, because batteries are not included on the list of ESMs itself, they do not qualify if installed as a standalone product. Solar Energy UK’s position is that batteries should be included on the list of ESMs, and continues to make the case for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted July 15, 2023 Share Posted July 15, 2023 Presumably since ASHP are on the list of ESM it might be possible for one company to sell an ASHP and Battery to a customer that already has solar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted July 15, 2023 Author Share Posted July 15, 2023 @Nickfromwales 🤯 pretty scary photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 13 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: Yup. 👎 You can find lots of photos online of this type of accident, which happens to all types of batteries for all sorts of different reasons, mainly to do with incorrect installation and use. So I'm not sure it's really justified to single out one particular make/model. On VAT clearly suppliers are interpreting the law as meaning 0% is applicable when installed as part of a (pre-existing) solar system, and VAT'able only when "stand alone" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 8 hours ago, PhilT said: So I'm not sure it's really justified to single out one particular make/model. The point is valid if that manufacturer is charging multiples of cells without proper (or any) means of balancing. I've happily moaned about Makita battery packs dying early from this exact same issue, even though I own probably over £3k worth of Makita cordless and mains power tools. I also get to talk with other solar installers, some who only install the "chinesium" stuff, and I get feedback from them behind the scenes too. These are what a colleague suggested for my house, and what he has in his. His thoughts regarding PT are same as mine. https://www.leochbattery.co.uk/products/leoch-lithium-48v/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted July 16, 2023 Share Posted July 16, 2023 1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said: The point is valid if that manufacturer is charging multiples of cells without proper (or any) means of balancing. As said upthread I do not believe this is what Pylontech do. There are very many Victron inverter installations using PT batteries and I have not seen anyone suggest/agree with this on the Victron forum, even on discussions about charging and balancing. The only major difference is that PT use 15-cell stacks rather than the 16-cell packs favoured by other mfrs so all the voltage parameters are set differently. What is the evidence for your assertion there is no proper balancing @Nickfromwales? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 15 hours ago, sharpener said: What is the evidence for your assertion there is no proper balancing @Nickfromwales? Being told that by "more then one source" in the solar industry, in a nutshell. You say 15 hours ago, sharpener said: I do not believe this is what Pylontech do Can you post evidence to the contrary? I am quite happy to stand down if someone says here is written proof that the PT batteries are properly (balanced) charged. The Leoch batteries state that in the first line of their description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285164579131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortarThePoint Posted July 18, 2023 Author Share Posted July 18, 2023 Cell balancing is a definite requirement as far as I am concerned and it's surprising/unforgivable if the Pylontech batteries don't feature it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, MortarThePoint said: Cell balancing is a definite requirement as far as I am concerned and it's surprising/unforgivable if the Pylontech batteries don't feature it. Have posted this as a query on Victron discussion board and immediately got confirmation from two acknowledged experts there that - as I suspected - they do have cell balancing in the BMS. Edited July 18, 2023 by sharpener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 On 17/07/2023 at 12:01, Nickfromwales said: I am quite happy to stand down if someone says here is written proof that the PT batteries are properly (balanced) charged. I hope that now given a link with details even as to the chip family used for cell balancing you will concede they do have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 6 hours ago, sharpener said: I hope that now given a link with details even as to the chip family used for cell balancing you will concede they do have it. Good evening. Apparently, once upon a time they didn't, but now they do. I concede, sir. I am now off to do my ritual self disembowelment, followed by a swift beheading. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 13 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: I am now off to do my ritual self disembowelment, followed by a swift beheading. Can you please delay that until after I’ve finished my plumbing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 On 21/07/2023 at 21:53, Thorfun said: Can you please delay that until after I’ve finished my plumbing? Always bloody wanting! 😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wil Posted August 1, 2023 Share Posted August 1, 2023 Sorry to hijack, but vaguely related: I was having a chat with a friend about to do a major ‘back to brick’ returb of an old Manor House in the Peaks. They mentioned that their/ the builder’s interpretation regs covered zero rating ‘energy saving materials’ so including all their insulation and solar and heat pump and batteries were covered and were able to be zero rated. Has anyone else managed to zero rate all their insulation, batteries etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaklander Posted September 8 Share Posted September 8 On 01/08/2023 at 14:07, Wil said: Has anyone else managed to zero rate all their insulation, batteries etc? Did they manage to do this / was there any more advice forthcoming? (and which bit of the Peaks is the manor house in?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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