Plumber put together a thing … and I have concerns

[mjsx]

So in the cellar I now have a completely new system boiler (Vitodens 100-W) and unvented cylinder (Kingspan Albion Ultrasteel Horizontal Indirect).

 

The system (see below) has a few properties I find … interesting.

 

 

Apparently it’s all done according to building control etc. specifications but I have a few concerns:

 

1. Is it okay for the pressure relief valve to discharge downwards, via a plastic pipe, into a pump designed for condensate? (There’s no tundra has far as I can see.)

2. The flue currently passes through a hole cut into an air brick. Can it stay like this or does the flue need to be bricked up?

3.  All of the cylinder pipe work is plastic all the way to the boiler. Does some of it  need to be copper?

4. Finally, the system been set up so that I can control the flow temperature only via the ViCare app. I have a ViCare wireless thermostat but for some reason it wasn’t set up at the same time as the boiler, and now the plumber wants an additional payment to set this up. I find it strange that Viessmann even makes this possible—not a good experience for the consumer.

[SimonD]

34 minutes ago, mjsx said:

1. Is it okay for the pressure relief valve to discharge downwards, via a plastic pipe, into a pump designed for condensate? (There’s no tundra has far as I can see.)

No, it's not. For a temperature and pressure relief valve it needs to be a specific high temperature pump arrangement. Like this: https://theintergasshop.co.uk/hot-water-cylinders/959-pump-house-high-temperature-prv-pump-for-unvented-cylinder-discharge-ph-5l-hw.html

 

And yes, you need a tundish plus there are other issues with the pipework generally complying with requirements.

 

34 minutes ago, mjsx said:

2. The flue currently passes through a hole cut into an air brick. Can it stay like this or does the flue need to be bricked up?

 

It's supposed to be a room sealed boiler for a reason - what you've got doesn't even come close. Flue should be correctly sealed up. I also doesn't look like the correct bracketing has been installed for the flue extension but a cable tie? See Gas Safe technical bulletin on the topic here: https://registeredgasengineer.co.uk/technical/technical-bulletin-152/

 

34 minutes ago, mjsx said:

3.  All of the cylinder pipe work is plastic all the way to the boiler. Does some of it  need to be copper?

 

I don't install Viessman boilers but the general requirement is copper 1st meter from boiler. A quick call to Viessman would confirm.

 

34 minutes ago, mjsx said:

4. Finally, the system been set up so that I can control the flow temperature only via the ViCare app. I have a ViCare wireless thermostat but for some reason it wasn’t set up at the same time as the boiler, and now the plumber wants an additional payment to set this up. I find it strange that Viessmann even makes this possible—not a good experience for the consumer.

 

Boiler efficiency is determined by the boiler AND installed controls which means that new boilers need to be installed with a range of control. If there is no thermostatic control/weather compensation, then it's unlikely it complies with building regulations. Here's Veissman's article on the subject: https://www.viessmann.co.uk/en/heating-advice/boilers/what-is-boiler-interlock.html

 

Personally, I'd ask the installer to come back and rectify everything, or you can explain that you'll give Gas Safe a call and ask them what they think of it.

 

I'm guessing you've checked his Gas Safe registration?

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by SimonD

[Temp]

And not a bit of pipe insulation in sight.

 

Well OK just a bit. Looks like a lot missing to me.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Temp

[Nickfromwales]

This is one of the laziest examples of a boiler and cylinder install that I’ve seen for a very very long while. 
Looks like a (poor) 1st year apprentice did it!

Not a clip in sight, and for that amount of pipe work I would have wanted (expected) to see everything in copper as it’s in such close proximity to the boiler. 
If this is the finished article and he’s signed it off, then WTF? 
The condensate and D2 pump(s) should have been segregated afaic, regardless of regs it’s just a sensible standard. The 2x PRV’s should have combined and been dumped into a pump that has attenuation, like this LINK and what you have there is defo no good. If you like, go down there and open the 5bar PRV on the control group and see what happens.  

The flue install is a) unsafe (the appliance should NOT be on atm! And b) embarrassingly shoddy with, as said above, insufficient mechanical fixings. He has tek screwed the joints, but on a windy day the products of combustion will be entering that building (unless he’s installed a snorkel outside? Pics?).

Not even any clips on the gas, and that’s in pressfit ffs so needs all the help it can get! 
 

This isn’t even a 3 out of 10 tbh.  

[mjsx]

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like my concerns are at least somewhat justified, unfortunately…
 

I have now received as Gas Safe Buildings Regulations Compliance certificate and it’s legit. Nothing on the cylinder though. 

Given your thoughts, I’ll put these questions directly to the plumber (so far most of the comms have been via the builder, who has more or less replied “I don’t know about the plumbing, the plumber is certified, what’s the problem?”).

 

Might also approach another plumber to get it all checked—what’s a good way to phrase this? (How do they feel about checking another plumber’s work?)

[SimonD]

My view is that you should just get on the phone with Gas Safe and do it now - you have a very legitimate question about your flue which is potentially dangerous and must be investigated. Neither I nor @Nickfromwales are overstating this risk and how it is viewed as a safety issue in the gas regulations. Your lethal or otherwise categorised as Immediately Dangerous situations are where there is risk of products of combustion getting into an enclosed space with a person, or a gas leak.

 

If your installer has been happy to charge you for that standard of work and then self-certify the work, he really shouldn't be continuing in business without further supervision and training, or maybe not at all. Even a Gas Safe trainee will be able to spot the faults with that installation, and they're only the obvious ones in the photo. I dread to think what else might be found lurking around.

 

For your own peace of mind, I wouldn't use the boiler until Gas Safe has seen it. But if you must, make sure you install a carbonmonoxide alarm and install it correctly in the space, which I see is another thing missing. CO alarms should be installed with every new gas boiler installation.

Edited June 24, 2023 by SimonD

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, SimonD said:

My view is that you should just get on the phone with Gas Safe and do it now

What actually happens when this sort of thing is reported?

Do big wigs come around quickly and do an assessment, or just send a second class letter to the tradesman responsible?

It is not knowing the processes that puts many people off doing the right thing, it is why we turn a blind eye to too many misdemeanors in life.

[JohnMo]

On 22/06/2023 at 22:31, SimonD said:

room sealed boiler for a reason

Room sealed, means it doesn't take combustion air from the room, instead all combustion air comes in via the outer annulus of a concentric flue. It doesn't need to be in a sealed room, you could mount it on an outside wall if that suited you and it was frost free.

 

However - The exit point of the flue through the wall does require sealing to prevent combustion products getting in to the house.

 

Also what was the purpose of the air brick does this need to be replicated elsewhere?

 

 

[SimonD]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

What actually happens when this sort of thing is reported?

Do big wigs come around quickly and do an assessment, or just send a second class letter to the tradesman responsible?

It is not knowing the processes that puts many people off doing the right thing, it is why we turn a blind eye to too many misdemeanors in life.

 

If the op calls and tells them that the installer has installed the flue through an airbrick and left a great big hole round the flue, plus the 2m odd length of flue extension is hanging off a zip tie rather than any flue brackets, it will trigger an inspection at the very least. Gas Safe will get hold of the installer and tell him to meet them at the property where they will go through the installation. They will also, in all likelihood, ask him to go demonstrate the commissioning process step by step whle asking him questions about what he's doing and why. They might then also want to visit a number of his other installations.

 

If the installation shows that products of combustion are coming into the property from the flue then in all likelihood, he will be RIDDOR'd and then he gets into a very stick mess.

 

I know someone who was RIDDOR'd following a customer being admitted into hospital about 8months after a new boiler installation for alleged carbon monoxide poisoning. Investigations were very thorough and he was found not to be at fault - it was the gas hob installation - but he was asked to modify a couple of parts of his installation.

 

You can report questionable gas work online here: https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/gas-safety/concerns-reporting-illegal-gas-work/report-gas-work-concerns/ or email them,or call them.

 

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Room sealed, means it doesn't take combustion air from the room, instead all combustion air comes in via the outer annulus of a concentric flue. It doesn't need to be in a sealed room, you could mount it on an outside wall if that suited you and it was frost free.

 

FFS, actually, a room sealed boiler is one where WHOLE combustion system is sealed from the room.

 

But here's the definition from the Gas Safe (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998:

 

"room-sealed appliance” means an appliance whose combustion system is sealed from the room in which the appliance is located and which obtains air for combustion from a ventilated uninhabited space within the premises or directly from the open air outside the premises and which vents the products of combustion directly to open air outside the premises"

 

Therefore if the flue isn't sealed correctly, including through the wall, it is no longer room sealed. I am gas safe registered btw.....

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, SimonD said:

If the op calls and tells them that the installer has.....

Would @mjsx be better off getting his builder to report it, because

 

5 hours ago, mjsx said:

 (so far most of the comms have been via the builder, who has more or less replied “I don’t know about the plumbing, the plumber is certified, what’s the problem?”).

 

I suppose it really depends who was managing the work.

 

To me it sounds like @mjsx has nothing to loose by not reporting it pronto.

[SimonD]

54 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Would @mjsx be better off getting his builder to report it, because

 

From the sounds of it,the builder isn't particularly interested, so @mjsx could mention to the builder on Monday morning that he has some misgivings, tell/show the builder and in the same breath say he's going to callGas Safe to get some advice on the matter. Then see what happens.

 

56 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I suppose it really depends who was managing the work.

 

Not really, from a Gas Safety regulations perspective it is very definitely the responsibility of the installer. But it is ALSO the responsibility of the builder managing the project. If the flue, for example, is found to be Immediately Dangerous, the builder could also be prosecuted by the HSE.

 

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

To me it sounds like @mjsx has nothing to loose by not reporting it pronto.

 

Yup, me too. At the end of the day, the installer simply should not have left the flue, or permitted the flue to be left in that way, then self-certified the installation and permitted the use of the boiler by the customer.

[Nickfromwales]

8 hours ago, SimonD said:

permitted the use of the boiler

Yup, by commissioning a gas boiler (gas burning appliance) you are bringing to life a lethal device. 
If it is less than a 100% complete and compliant installation then it’s very simple, you do NOT supply it with gas and you make it “safe”. That is done by either cap-ending the cut gas supply immediately prior to the boiler, or by installing a disc in the supply from the gas meter so gas cannot be let into the system by turning the supply EGC on.

This is simply stuff you do not play devils advocate with. It is either a) fit for use or b) left disconnected from the gas supply. 
You can fill it with water, power it up, check it functions to the point where it locks out on flame failure, but you CANNOT set it to work with a live gas connection, thus allowing it to then create carbon monoxide.

 

The laziness of this guy is apparent in every single, solitary, aspect of this job. Left unchallenged this is how he will do the next job. A bag of ready mix mortar is £10. 15 mins to knock a mix up and trowel it in.

 

No excuses.

 

10 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Would @mjsx be better off getting his builder to report it, because

Seriously? His builder will be shitting air-bricks, and will instantly revert to a state of self-preservation. He will not be a wise choice for an ambassador for this?!?

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

18 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Would @mjsx be better off getting his builder to report it, because

Seriously? His builder will be shitting air-bricks, and will instantly revert to a state of self-preservation. He will not be a wise choice for an ambassador for this?!?

I think that really depends on who is the Project Manager.

Quite simply, if something that is potentially dangerous has been done, reported to the PM, and then the correct course of action is not done, then you do not want that PM there.

There has to be professionalism, it is business, not a lover's tiff.

[Nickfromwales]

Doesn’t quite stink of a job with a chain of command of such grandeur!

It is still, categorically, the responsibility of the GSR’d installer and absolutely nobody else. The (a) PM wouldn’t have a clue what was required of a compliant and safe / robust installation so their opinion would be worthless and they’d be powerless to comment or represent themselves or the, the builder, the installer or the end client in this instance. 
PM’s employ people and collect the bits of paper they dispense. PM’s don’t sign of gas, or electric, or ventilation or solar etc, nor would they know exactly what they were looking at. 
 

Expect these types of responses, 

On 24/06/2023 at 07:24, mjsx said:

comms have been via the builder, who has more or less replied “I don’t know about the plumbing, the plumber is certified, what’s the problem?”).

💁🏻‍♂️

[SteamyTea]

14 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

The (a) PM wouldn’t have a clue what was required of a compliant and safe / robust installation so their opinion would be worthless and they’d be powerless to comment or represent themselves or the, the builder, the installer or the end client in this instance. 

Not after a concern has been raised (this is assuming that the builder, in this instance, is also the PM).

The buck may well stop with e plumber, but, for instance, if I am on a bus that has brake failure, I don't find the person that serviced the bus, I raise the problem with the bus company.

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Not after a concern has been raised (this is assuming that the builder, in this instance, is also the PM).

The buck may well stop with e plumber, but, for instance, if I am on a bus that has brake failure, I don't find the person that serviced the bus, I raise the problem with the bus company.

Completely different and irrelevant example. 
The GSR’d installer is the only person on site that can comment / be approached / be held accountable. HSE wouldn’t go and wake the builder up, they’d go straight to the address of the chap who commissioned a lethal device, as the builder is not qualified or competent.

 

1. Ring GSR
2. Inform builder by writing
3. see point 1

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Completely different and irrelevant example. 
The GSR’d installer is the only person on site that can comment / be approached / be held accountable. HSE wouldn’t go and wake the builder up, they’d go straight to the address of the chap who commissioned a lethal device, as the builder is not qualified or competent.

 

1. Ring GSR
2. Inform builder by writing
3. see point 1

I think we may be at cross purposes here.

If it was my project, and the builder was the PM, I would ask him to report it.  If he failed to do so, then I would report it.

No point shooting first then asking the dead questions.

[Nickfromwales]

26 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Expect these types of responses, 

On 24/06/2023 at 07:24, mjsx said:

comms have been via the builder, who has more or less replied “I don’t know about the plumbing, the plumber is certified, what’s the problem?”).

💁🏻‍♂️

You not got your glasses on? The OP already has!! They received the FO.

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

No point shooting first then asking the dead questions.

All depends if the dead are the occupants of the house. 
This installer has clearly decide that he will define some new standards which he feels will be “perfectly fine”. His work is terrible.  

[HughF]

Report to gas safe, simple as... The scheme exists for a reason.

[Huckleberrys]

As a gas safe registered engineer it makes me so mad when you come across installations like this. They need to be strung up on the city walls! And have the nerve to ask for more money to set the stat up as well! I fit viessmann boilers alot...the stat is only working in the mode you have it in as he has not selected the right tick box during commissioning! Also viessmann flues are not meant to be screwed, they are designed to allow expansion in the pipework. They just need to be fixed with an appropriate bracket at every joint...not hung off one zip tie.  

 

If I was inspecting this boiler from just that picture it would be classed as At Risk and with your permission be turned off. Go straight to Gas safe. Highlight the issues that people have raised. Then take issue up with plumber and builder. If he installs like this for you then he is doing it to everyone and his work needs to be got on top of. It doesn't matter if you have that certificate or not...its completely worthless if its certifying something that is not certifiable!

[mjsx]

All right, so I reported a concern with the gas safe registry. Thanks all for your info and advice. They say they’ll get back to me within 5 business days, and inspect within 10. Seems kinda slow but maybe it’s faster in practice…

 

Will babysit the boiler for now… At least it’s Summer. 

[Nickfromwales]

On 29/06/2023 at 10:44, mjsx said:

All right, so I reported a concern with the gas safe registry. Thanks all for your info and advice. They say they’ll get back to me within 5 business days, and inspect within 10. Seems kinda slow but maybe it’s faster in practice…

 

Will babysit the boiler for now… At least it’s Summer. 

Get the electric immersion on, and turn the gas off. Better to be safe than sorry.

[SteamyTea]

32 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Get the electric immersion on, and turn the gas off. Better to be safe than sorry.

Well that relies on an expansion vessel and a PRV being fitted, which relies on this plumber having done that.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Well that relies on an expansion vessel and a PRV being fitted, which relies on this plumber having done that.

You can see those, clearly, I’ve already looked at the pics closely.

OP says they want to limp by, but they should t really be using this appliance as it’s (the gas burning appliance) not been installed to the manufacturers guidelines.