Potential builders

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, SarahG said:

The builder we met yesterday seemed keen if we find suppliers to get them to fit and supply, as they would then guarantee the work. So that is something I need to clarify with him when he provides the quote. How much and what is he expecting us to purchase? Really interested to see how this compares to other builders.

sounds like he's after you to project manage yourself if he's asking you to find people to supply and fit rather than being a main contractor and offering a turnkey solution. obviously, there's a lot of savings to be had by project managing but it is time consuming! normally, afaik, a main contractor will get his plumber/sparky/chippy to fit the stuff that you can source if you want. but I guess everyone is different and there's no one solution to this building malarky.

[Post and beam]

4 hours ago, Redoctober said:

could this be why you are still looking for a builder?

Possibly, yes.  But having said he was  experienced and then later in the conversation exposing the fact that he actually was not i think i am justified in letting the gentleman pass.

[Andehh]

12 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

if you wanted bankrolling i'd hope the builder increases their margin accordingly. Fortunately they are in a good position to pick their customers.

 

Standard JCT contract work on interim valuations which are then invoiced to the client, ie payment in arrears. Of course these can be amended, but it is not the norm for builders to need upfront payment.... Because their entire industry works on credit for the above reason.

 

Walk into any builders merchants and ask for their credit terms, all will discuss, run credit checks and assess financial situation. Good builders generally will have no issues, bad builders won't generally get the credit... Hence a good way of vetting builders (to help OP) in advance. 

 

Advising a new starter to self building that paying up front is normal or encouraged is frankly dangerous, there are no shortage of horror stories on this forum where people have lost money due to builders/Companies taking money and then losing interest in the job. Most problem builds end up with the question 'I hope you haven't paid him' for this very reason.... 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Andehh

[twice round the block]

A client can quite often get a better price on materials by using a cash account than a builder using his 30 day credit account. 

[TonyT]

when you supply materials and they don’t turn up you are still paying for a wasted day, and this excuse will be used to get ‘extras’ onto the final build.

it then knocks onto other trades, who with the builder would maybe be willing to let it go

for you a one off they are charging for the time wasted too.

 

specify the product you want and let the builder get it.

[Nickfromwales]

19 hours ago, Andehh said:

No, because most reputable builders have at least 30 days credit on those materials. Maybe on delivery but never at point of order... If a builder insists on payment ahead of/at point of ordering I would be concerned as to WHY he can't get credit... 

I'd be ( as the contractor ) more worried about why my client couldn't or wouldn't pay monthly, in advance, or agree to stage payments in advance per increment.

No way will I ever, again, give a client any form of credit. Been there, got the T-shirt, but not the circa £50-60k ( estimated ) that I'm still owed to date. These disingenuous scrotes of clients are currently using and enjoying the items I purchased, installed personally or worse paid to install, paid hotels and expenses to the subbies etc, fuel and more out of my back pocket.

Clients and contractors are equal, IMO, and if an amicable agreement can't be made with my potential ( new ) clients, then it's "adios amigo". There is a huge amount of work out there, and I don't need or want to take the risk, again.

Clients can make up any bollocks to sue a contractor but it is very different the other way around, as the courts favour the "poor victims" vs the professional ( who is assumed to have every T crossed and every I dotted ).

 

16 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

its because there isnt one trade responsible for air tightness. The buck just gets passed as its labour intensive to get right.

There can be, the client just needs to recognise this and then justify to themselves that a representative needs appointing to this accordingly, and to whatever else they or the typical general builder won't know, understand or execute with any competency. It's one discipline that keeps me very busy, but clients often either don't see the value of appointing an M&E consultant, or get one in at the 11th hour ( more like 5 mins to bloody midnight ) and then expect miracles.

 

This level of detail and the involvement of somebody appointed to take ownership / responsibility for delivering it needs to be in place well in advance of breaking ground, and then the client can insert this into tenders for the builder to be able to make costs and time allowances for the "additional" work, eg you've then turned an unkown into a known so it can be addressed and quantified, and monitored.

 

Either that, or the self builder needs to get out of the way and go turnkey, a-la MBC's foundation > frame > airtight guaranteed package, which is newbie / idiot proof, but also very safe and simple.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, twice round the block said:

A client can quite often get a better price on materials by using a cash account than a builder using his 30 day credit account. 

Exactly the nightmare I would run away from. Also completely incorrect.

As a contractor, I often get refused better terms when I buy up front ( as I do not want or need credit accounts ) as they see me as one-off business then. I have to basically tell them I'll go elsewhere, and THEN they'll magically give me the same ( better ) terms as account holders.

If they'd sell to you directly and cheaper for a one-off vs selling cheaper to the builder, then the builder would tell the merchants not to expect to see any more of their money as they've essentially then undermined the builder. Merchants want life-long relationships vs servicing one-off 'hit & run' custom.

 

2 hours ago, TonyT said:

when you supply materials and they don’t turn up you are still paying for a wasted day, and this excuse will be used to get ‘extras’ onto the final build.

it then knocks onto other trades, who with the builder would maybe be willing to let it go

for you a one off they are charging for the time wasted too.

 

specify the product you want and let the builder get it.

For these exact reasons. My favourite is where the client couldn't get what was requested, so they "bought 'this' instead" which is useless, and un suitable. Usually because the client had very limited time to search / find / procure and that lets everything downstream fall to shit. At more cost.

 

The client won't save money doing this, I assure you. Consider VAT, down time, bad taste from the arguments that will follow, losing traction and good people to it, and the fact that the contractors / builders will STILL want a 10% mark-up on the items you took out of their anticipated profit margins. Ask for this at the outset, and most builders will walk, as they know exactly how the rest of the job will go.....babysitting a micromanaging client who's savings schemes end up costing more in time, more in money, and frustrating everyone wanting to get on.

Time is irrecoverable for everyone, and once it's gone it's not coming back!

[Thorfun]

7 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

The client won't save money doing this, I assure you. Consider VAT, down time, bad taste from the arguments that will follow, losing traction and good people to it, and the fact that the contractors / builders will STILL want a 10% mark-up on the items you took out of their anticipated profit margins. Ask for this at the outset, and most builders will walk, as they know exactly how the rest of the job will go.....babysitting a micromanaging client who's savings schemes end up costing more in time, more in money, and frustrating everyone wanting to get on.

Time is irrecoverable for everyone, and once it's gone it's not coming back!

I bought all our electrical cable as I was going to do first fix. in the end I ran out of time and needed to ask my electrician to do the work. I offered him an uplift on his normal daily rate to cover the 'loss' of profit on material buying. just thought it was the right thing to do especially as he was doing me a favour by doing the first fix when at the outset we agreed I would do it with his consultancy if required.

 

there are some good clients out there Nick! don't tar us all with the same jaded brush. 😉 

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

I bought all our electrical cable as I was going to do first fix. in the end I ran out of time and needed to ask my electrician to do the work. I offered him an uplift on his normal daily rate to cover the 'loss' of profit on material buying. just thought it was the right thing to do especially as he was doing me a favour by doing the first fix when at the outset we agreed I would do it with his consultancy if required.

 

there are some good clients out there Nick! don't tar us all with the same jaded brush. 😉 

You would be tar-free, sir, as the above is what is called "recognition and agreeable compromise". Apples for oranges in your above instance  

 

I am also working for some very nice clients atm, and the aforementioned comments are quotes and responses to statements made by others. That's why I posted my responses, in response!

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Thorfun said:

There are some good clients

Of course there are. They are usually happier people too.

 

And there are bad, greedy, cheating people in all walks of life.

 

With the wisdom of age, I was never excited meeting a potential new client, and I didn't overpromise....even that we wanted the work. Some remarked on this as a positive.

Also I would explain that we are not a bank, that they would be paying us about say £50k/ fortnight  and that we need that promply for our bills, and we always pay promptly ourselves. Our best price will be based on these terms, and anything else causes us to charge more.  Better to use your funds or bank...

That can sort clients out.

As soon as a QS or PM was involved we had increased risk (they like to show how tough they are) and admin.  

[SteamyTea]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Time is irrecoverable for everyone, and once it's gone it's not coming back

Bowie did a song about it in '73

 

 

 

 

[SarahG]

On 15/04/2023 at 08:10, Dave Jones said:

 

what m2 cost are you budgeting for out of interest ?

Probably around £2500k per sq m. We are planning to do a lot of the interior work ourselves P&D and bathroom installs. Could do kitchen, but would rather not. Landscaping we will do ourselves so would leave that out of the quote and see how much money we have left at the end.

[SarahG]

On 15/04/2023 at 19:26, Thorfun said:

sounds like he's after you to project manage yourself if he's asking you to find people to supply and fit rather than being a main contractor and offering a turnkey solution. obviously, there's a lot of savings to be had by project managing but it is time consuming! normally, afaik, a main contractor will get his plumber/sparky/chippy to fit the stuff that you can source if you want. but I guess everyone is different and there's no one solution to this building malarky.

Yes there is an expectation that we will be doing some of the work, which we are fine with. I don't think a turnkey solution is within our budget! He is fairly new to the house building game, so there is an element of risk involved (which we hope will be reflected in the price). It is an area he wants to get in to and is very competent (we know previous clients). We will be asking to see previous work regardless. It's given us a starting point anyway.

[SteamyTea]

24 minutes ago, SarahG said:

He is fairly new to the house building game, so there is an element of risk involved (which we hope will be reflected in the price)

That should push his price up, not down surely.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_curve

Edited April 17, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

That should push his price up, not down surely.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_curve

unless he treats it as a loss leader to get the experience and references on his CV?

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

unless he treats it as a loss leader to get the experience and references on his CV?

Hope he has assets in his name you can claim against if it goes wrong.

[SarahG]

Well we will see when we get the quote. He is keen to get in to housebuilding and is well known and recommended so it seemed sensible to have a chat and give him the opportunity to pitch for the business. 

[twice round the block]

4 hours ago, SarahG said:

Well we will see when we get the quote. He is keen to get in to housebuilding and is well known and recommended so it seemed sensible to have a chat and give him the opportunity to pitch for the business. 

Hope he's got insurance and you have