Acceptable gap between frame and structure?

[craig]

41 minutes ago, ggc said:

El-cheapo laser gave out the same result as their expensive professional tool (to my surprise too)

Tilt & Turn is to be re fitted

 

 

What did they say regarding measurements and unit sizes?

[ggc]

On 18/04/2023 at 15:49, craig said:

 

What did they say regarding measurements and unit sizes?

So…..

The glazing company blame the builders for having the fire stop incorrectly positioned. And stand their ground that everything is good.

They have now fitted the angled window above the sliding glass, and had removed the frame to pack with timber ply, to make it a snug fit.

 

The chap we are going to use for the rendering job today said the glazing company have mis measured.

Looks like we are sucking it up, but I will piss n moan with the other issue at hand 

( an incorrectly ordered door) that is still not resolved and looks like at best is 6 weeks away

[craig]

2 minutes ago, ggc said:

The glazing company blame the builders for having the fire stop incorrectly positioned. And stand their ground that everything is good.

 

Sh!te, get an independent surveyor. They're Scottish suppliers/installers, they "should" know 90% of everything in Scotland goes in behind the ingo (check reveal).

 

2 minutes ago, ggc said:

They have now fitted the angled window above the sliding glass, and had removed the frame to pack with timber ply, to make it a snug fit.

 

That tells you everything you need to know.

 

3 minutes ago, ggc said:

The chap we are going to use for the rendering job today said the glazing company have mis measured.

 

He is of course correct.

 

3 minutes ago, ggc said:

Looks like we are sucking it up, but I will piss n moan with the other issue at hand 

( an incorrectly ordered door) that is still not resolved and looks like at best is 6 weeks away

 

Stand your ground, they're obviously not accepting responsibility or saying we've ****ed up, these are the options available and our preferred solution is x. Is this acceptable?

[ggc]

32 minutes ago, craig said:

 

Sh!te, get an independent surveyor. They're Scottish suppliers/installers, they "should" know 90% of everything in Scotland goes in behind the ingo (check reveal).

 

 

That tells you everything you need to know.

 

 

He is of course correct.

 

 

Stand your ground, they're obviously not accepting responsibility or saying we've ****ed up, these are the options available and our preferred solution is x. Is this acceptable?

Thanks for your opinions Craig.

We are so keen to just get the project finished , that further delays and hassles just don’t seem worth the fight. 
The Renderer, see’s no issues with doing the job to a high standard, and there was none of the “sucking through his teeth “ noises when we had a meeting on site earlier today.

 

We just aren’t the kind of people to creat a fuss , to ultimately end up getting a few grand back. But I suppose that’s kind of foolish on our part, If deep down we aren’t happy with the install!

The product, however, is lovely, and we are happy with the actual units.

 

Even though we have had them finally fitted

Are we really in a position to keep noising on about the miss-measuring? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[ggc]

[ggc]

[Adsibob]

On 13/04/2023 at 14:04, ggc said:

Am I being unreasonable asking them to manufacture it again?

No. I would reject these. Apart from being unsightly, it's possibly a security risk. With gaps so thick, what's to stop a burglar coming along with a large sharp knife or small saw and cutting through the foam and ripping out the window?

Surely they provided technical drawings for sign off before you signed off on the windows. What do those drawings show?

 

If you don't want a fuss, and are happy to accept these to avoid delays and litigation, you could always just accept them, but not pay the final invoice. I don't know how much saving that will be, probably not much more than 5% or 10%, but it will be at least something. You can do this completely lawfully. All you do is at the end, once they've done everything they have to do and demand their final payment, you just send them an email saying that the products supplied were not fit for purposes and they were not of the correct dimensions. This has caused you additional costs in terms of building out the reveals/cavities. You therefore have a claim for damages against them and you are setting off what you owe contractually against what they owe you.

The only difficulty with this approach is that they may not issue you with the final paperwork and certificates. You may need that to get your building control approval (or whatever the equivalent is in Scotland). But some of the docs you need like documentation showing the technical specification of the glazing units should be available on the order paperwork you already have, so you might be able to get away with it. Check with your BC inspector what exactly they require.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Adsibob

[ggc]

17 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

No. I would reject these. Apart from being unsightly, it's possibly a security risk. With gaps so thick, what's to stop a burglar coming along with a large sharp knife or small saw and cutting through the foam and ripping out the window?

Surely they provided technical drawings for sign off before you signed off on the windows. What do those drawings show?

 

If you don't want a fuss, and are happy to accept these to avoid delays and litigation, you could always just accept them, but not pay the final invoice. I don't know how much saving that will be, probably not much more than 5% or 10%, but it will be at least something. You can do this completely lawfully. All you do is at the end, once they've done everything they have to do and demand their final payment, you just send them an email saying that the products supplied were not fit for purposes and they were not of the correct dimensions. This has caused you additional costs in terms of building out the reveals/cavities. You therefore have a claim for damages against them and you are setting off what you owe contractually against what they owe you.

The only difficulty with this approach is that they may not issue you with the final paperwork and certificates. You may need that to get your building control approval (or whatever the equivalent is in Scotland). But some of the docs you need like documentation showing the technical specification of the glazing units should be available on the order paperwork you already have, so you might be able to get away with it. Check with your BC inspector what exactly they require.

 

No technical drawings ever supplied to us by the installers.

We didn’t know this was a ‘thing’ that we would have either have been supplied with to check, or should have asked for

 

Payment for these was made in full before fitting

10% of invoice price to get them to come and measure up after the price was agreed.

50% of outstanding balance paid to place the order

Final 50% of outstanding balance paid 10 days before install, so they have our money!

Maybe a saving grace that it was all paid on a C/Card?

 

Im embarrassed to say there will be a lot of naivety on our part as this is our first dip in the self build swimming pool. 
I know we will learn by our mistakes, and learn what questions to ask and what documentation to ask for - shame it costs money to make these mistakes 

[Adsibob]

6 minutes ago, ggc said:

No technical drawings ever supplied to us by the installers.

That's a big red flag I'm afraid. 

 

6 minutes ago, ggc said:

Maybe a saving grace that it was all paid on a C/Card?

You lucky lucky thing. DEFINITELY RAISE THIS WITH YOUR CREDIT CARD COMPANY. You are entitled to compensation under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. Credit card company is jointly and severally liable for the window supplier's breach of contract. Here, the windows do not comply with all the terms in the contract which are implied by the consumer legistation, e.g. fitness for purpose, of reasonable quality, etc.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Adsibob

[ggc]

3 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

That's a big red flag I'm afraid. 

 

You lucky lucky thing. DEFINITELY RAISE THIS WITH YOUR CREDIT CARD COMPANY. You are entitled to compensation under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. Credit card company is jointly and severally liable for the window supplier's breach of contract. Here, the windows do not comply with all the terms in the contract which are implied by the consumer legistation, e.g. fitness for purpose, of reasonable quality, etc.

 

I think I love you for giving me a glimmer of hope of getting this mess sorted out

[Kelvin]

I would still stand firm with the supplier. You just need to be cool and reasonable but firm. You said you aren’t that type of person. Few of us are so practice the conversation beforehand. Write down all your points and speak them out loud to your other half or into the mirror. Include what’s the minimum outcome that’s acceptable to you. Write down their counter arguments and what your challenges to those are. Rehearse the conversation. Don’t do it over email. Do it face to face ideally or over the phone if no other choice. Think of some ‘super’ questions to ask them e.g. i tend to ask if this was your xxxx would you accept it? Some folk might say yes to this but few do because you’ve made them put themselves into your position. If they do say yes think of an equivalency such as they’ve got a new car and it’s scratched or the panel fit is poor, would they accept it or ask for it to be made good. Use email to summarise your complaint, the conversation you’ve had and your expected outcome & when this will happen by. 

 

While section 75 is good the banks don’t fall over themselves to cough up. The supplier will try and argue you’ve accepted the windows so they need to know you haven’t. 

[ggc]

Thanks @Kelvin

 

We aren’t finished with them by a long mile…..

Our Crittall door turned up to be fitted, and it has been ordered opening outwards, not inwards like we had verbally requested to the sales chap.

He fudged the order confirmation, and we never noticed!

 

It just gets better doesn’t it 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Lofty718]

@ggc I don't think you should accept this level of incompetence

 

You're building a mega project and relying on these people to get it right. It's quite a big deal and not a small bodge that you can let slide

 

I'd be pushing to get it all re done and spot on as you'd expect it to be. Rather difficult I know, because I imagine you want to be moving into the house asap and this could cause huge delays

[Adsibob]

8 hours ago, ggc said:

Thanks @Kelvin

 

We aren’t finished with them by a long mile…..

Our Crittall door turned up to be fitted, and it has been ordered opening outwards, not inwards like we had verbally requested to the sales chap.

He fudged the order confirmation, and we never noticed!

 

It just gets better doesn’t it 🤦🏻‍♂️

I still can’t believe a company (and you, if I’m honest) didn’t insist on drawings being signed off before manufacture. It’s really basic stuff. Sorry, don’t mean to sound critical, I just can’t believe it. 

[ggc]

Folks,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but should the actual window frame be attached to the fire stop?

As you can see in this photo it is nicely tucked in behind the blockwork creating the check reveal?

The builders left this at least 10mm

Im preparing to compose an email to be sent to the glazing company, and want to have my terminologies correct.

Pic shows the inside of where the sliding door now resides

 

This is the same on every window, a minimum 10mm check reveal

cheers

 

[saveasteading]

Can i suggest that it isn't as simple (one way or the other,) as some are suggesting here?

The client, as most, is doing this for the first and probably only time, so doesn't necessarily know the pitfalls, or that drawings can be proposed and approved.

Asking an amateur client to approve technical drawings can be seen as offloading responsibility, so isn't standard.

Mistakes happen. I think i might have measured to block instead of timber too.

When projects are subdivided into multiple responsibilities it saves the client a huge amount of money but they take on risk. This is an interface that was liable to go wrong. 

 

As I see it:

If  (and only if) the window company can fit it so that it isn't substandard then there isn't much of a claim. Maximum claim would be the cost of remedial and adaptions not by the window co. Plus you could argue for 0.5m2 ,or whatever, less window area.

 

If you went legal on this, that is all you would get.

 

Similarly verbal agreements, which 'aren't worth the paper they are printed on'.

 

Sorry. Building is very difficult and there are risks.

[eandg]

8 hours ago, ggc said:

Thanks @Kelvin

 

We aren’t finished with them by a long mile…..

Our Crittall door turned up to be fitted, and it has been ordered opening outwards, not inwards like we had verbally requested to the sales chap.

He fudged the order confirmation, and we never noticed!

 

It just gets better doesn’t it 🤦🏻‍♂️

Not meaning to sound unsympathetic but your contract is struck based on you accepting their written offer when you sign on the dotted line/part with your cash. We've had a couple of relatively minor, similar, issues with suppliers and they've all been caused by wee oversights on my part where I've not fully checked the small print and that's really on me - unless there's something significant which breaches the supplier's duty of reasonable care/professional competency then I don't see you having much of a leg to stand on if you've not got approved drawings/a schedule setting out a list of agreed sizes. 

[Dave Jones]

what an unfortunate series of cock ups. All too common and easily done.

 

These are the things that a professional site manager/project manager would catch as they know to look out for them. You are saving the cost and not having the benefit of this experience so you can spend it elsewhere like we all do. 

 

It's a learning curve, once you start on your third there will be a lot less mistakes trust me!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ggc]

Having spent 20yrs working in sales in the motor trade, working with some very high end brands, I appreciate that attention to detail is of paramount importance. 
Nice to get some opinions that counter the liability argument.

Verbal was always something that i adhere to, wysiwyg and all of that.

As @Dave Jones says

Third one’s a charm!

[Adsibob]

Although it’s completely bonkers that they didn’t provide drawings for you to sign off on, presumably they were the ones that surveyed the cavities. If so, then they are liable, because the survey was incompetent, and you were paying for a made to measure product, which obviously implies you were paying them to measure and then make. So I still think you have a good chance of getting your money back from your credit card, but that will only work if you create the paper trail now setting out the issues, give company a reasonable time to rectify (I think your credit card company will require you to give the supplier 30 days or something similar) and if not rectified by then, you can then escalate to credit card company.

 

 Just one thing though, section 75 only applies to contracts where the value is £100 to £30,000. How much was the overall cost here? If over £30k, you might be able  to argue there were separate contracts, e.g. one for the windows and one for the door.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Adsibob

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Adsibob said:

the survey was incompetent

Interesting.

It assumes that a glazing company is aware of all possible construction options, and that it was clear on detailed drawings (if they existed) or on site, that the windows were not to be in the block section.

 

I think ggc has it right: legal action would be costly and i am confident  that there is  case law that would result in the award of a tiny sum.

 

I like ggc comment about the motor industry....except that vehicles are not normally individually designed with multiple choices of parts, then assembled in a field.

Get everyone working on a satisfactory solution. If you can, get something for nothing from the window people....trims or something to benefit you but easy for them.

[Adsibob]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

i am confident  that there is  case law that would result in the award of a tiny sum

The case you are thinking of is probably Ruxley Electronics and Construction Ltd v Forsyth [1996] AC 344. In that case, some builders had agreed to construct a swimming pool with a diving area 7 feet 6 inches deep. The pool when constructed had a depth of only 6 feet. The cost of rebuilding the pool to the contractual depth would have been £21,560. But the trial judge, having heard the evidence, concluded that the pool owner did not have the intention of using the damages to reconstruct the pool. He found also that the residential property of which the pool formed part had suffered no diminution in value by reason of the lack of one foot of depth in the pool's diving area. Nonetheless the pool owner claimed the £21,500 as damages. The builders, on the other hand, contended that, on the facts as found, the pool owner had suffered no loss and the damages should be nil. The trial judge accepted neither contention but instead awarded the £2,500 expressed as compensation for "a loss of amenity brought about by the shortfall in depth" (see at p 363). The Court of Appeal [1994] 1 WLR 650 set aside the £2,500 award and substituted an award of the cost of rebuilding, ie the £21,560. The House of Lords, overturned the Court of Appeal’s decision and restored the trial judge's order.

 

However, I think that case can be distinguished from the present situation, for the reasons below:

 

@ggc is not intending on keeping the undersized windows, whereas Mr Forsyth intended to keep and use his undersized pool.

 

There are differences between the utility of a swimming pool that is a little bit shallower than intended and windows that are a little bit smaller than intended. The latter will require additional remedial work to fix, will let in less light, and will end up giving a slightly different aesthetic. Perhaps these differences are subtle, I’m not sure.

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Adsibob

[Dave Jones]

very interesting, how come the appeal judge who got it wrong and wasn't sacked after being proven wrong ? If he was a trade he most definitely would off! or is it public servants are immune from having any consequences for their actions ever.

 

by the sounds of it months of wranmgling on the windows will knacker the build up, the front door on the other hand id 100% reject it and get a sheet of ply instead in the meantime if needs be. 

[Adsibob]

17 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

very interesting, how come the appeal judge who got it wrong and wasn't sacked after being proven wrong ?

That’s not how a decent justice system in a modern democracy works. Particularly in England, where many aspects of the law is effectively judge-made, it’s important for Judges to feel like they can do their job, without fear of punishment. That is because often they will be called upon to make very difficult and bold decisions. They don’t need the added pressure of punishment if they get it wrong. Believe me, it’s highly embarrassing to be overturned on appeal, that is punishment enough. Ultimately, judges are human. We all make mistakes.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Adsibob

[Dave Jones]

11 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

That’s not how a decent justice system in a modern democracy works. Particularly in England, where many aspects of the law is effectively judge-made, it’s important for Judges to feel like they can do their job, without fear of punishment. That is because often they will be called upon to make very difficult and bold decisions. They don’t need the added pressure of punishment if they get it wrong. Believe me, it’s highly embarrassing to be overturned on appeal, that is punishment enough. Ultimately, judges are human. We all make mistakes.

 

interesting!

 

Not sure I agree we have a decent justice system though. Stabbers go free yet a farmer who dredged a short stretch of river gets locked up. Madness.