Barn conversion Hertfordshire

[ChrisF8]

Hi, 

 

This is our first self build/barn conversion and I’m finding the design process a bit confusing so I wonder if you can help me with who I might need to appoint and when.

 

We’ve basically had class Q permission granted on a barn conversion. The plans I have are for the planning only and drawn up by an architect (not someone I appointed). I’ve been told I need to appoint the following:

 

Structural engineer - to check the load bearing of the frame and see if we need to underpin.

 

Architect - to draw up construction plans

 

Quantity Surveyor  - to work out estimates for the build.

 

is this correct? And in the right order?

 

Any recommendations for the services appreciated

 

[gc100]

I think if you are doing a self build you need to have a much better understanding of everything involved. There are several books (like self build bible) - I think it best you have a read to get the basics.

 

the only one in the list you have that is a must have is the structural engineer, however the others will depend on who doing the build and how etc

[Post and beam]

Or get someone like Potton to turn the planning drawings into something that can be built. Although Potton are relatively expensive they would do all that is required to get the thing built right.

[IanR]

On 11/04/2023 at 07:19, ChrisF8 said:

Structural engineer - to check the load bearing of the frame and see if we need to underpin.

 

As part of the Class Q Application was there an SE report submitted that assessed the building's capability of conversion? Since you didn't engage the SE, you won't be able to rely on that report, but it may be a good starting point to know what you are facing. 

 

You'll likely need an SE to sign off any structural changes you plan to make for the conversion. Agricultural buildings are typically "light weight", and the conversion will add weight to the structure as you put in place domestic insulation, rain screen materials, mezzanine etc. which may all require upgraded structure and foundations.

 

With the Class Q, there will have been drawings submitted that show at least elevations, floor plans and finish materials. Are you wishing to change these? If so you may need to submit the Design & Appearance condition of the Class Q, if not, you may not need an Architect, there are other options for Building Regs drawings. 

 

Have you got a plan on the process for making the conversion. Will you add new elements in timber-frame, masonry, ICF, other?  Are you using the existing floor structure? What's you aspiration for building energy performance?

 

Are you happy/confident  to research options and make decisions, or do you want a turn-key solution where the conversion is delivered at a premium price, but is de-risked.

Edited April 12, 2023 by IanR

[Temp]

On 11/04/2023 at 07:19, ChrisF8 said:

Structural engineer - to check the load bearing of the frame and see if we need to underpin.

 

Caution...

 

To be eligible for Class Q Permitted Development I dont think you are allowed to underpin or replace foundations. Normally the planners require a report confirming the building can be converted without major "development".

 

I would look to see whats in the report that was submitted with the class Q application. If it mentions underpinning in there you might be OK because the council gave approved it anyway. If not mentioned then you might have to hope the planners don't find out you need it. 

 

https://www.edgarchitecture.co.uk/blog/what-is-class-q-planning

 

Quote

 

Structurally, your barn must have the foundations to be converted and already be “capable of functioning as a dwelling”. If it requires “the construction of new structural elements” prior to commencing the conversion, Class Q will not be applicable. Unfortunately, what is meant by “new structural elements” is unclear, as the replacement of walls, windows, roofs etc. is permitted under Class Q. The planning authority will have their say as to whether the existing building is fit for conversion under this development scheme. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Temp

[Temp]

On 11/04/2023 at 07:19, ChrisF8 said:

I’ve been told I need to appoint the following:

 

Structural engineer - to check the load bearing of the frame and see if we need to underpin.

 

Architect - to draw up construction plans

 

Quantity Surveyor  - to work out estimates for the build.

 

is this correct? And in the right order?

 

Architects and QS are quite expensive. Their standard contract can typically ask for as much as 11% of the build cost each if you hire them for the full duration of the project. If you can afford that then great. The Architect would visit the site regularly to check progress and manage the builder and look for defects etc. The QS would also visit a few times to value the work done and tell you if it's OK to pay the builder the next stage payment. Having a QS on board can help if you expect a lot of changes or the builder starts pressing you to pay more or in advance etc. It can be handy to be able to defer to your QS. 

 

However if you are good at managing people and negotiating then perhaps you only need an Architect and QS at the beginning? If unsure perhaps hire them in phases?

 

If the report submitted for planning says underpinning isn't required I would start by finding an Architect to do construction drawings and get Building Control Approval to start. The Architect may require the services of an SE to check some things. Some Architects seem unable to do the calculations for steel beams for example. Be very clear on your budget. Its very easy for them to design things you can't afford to build.

 

Depending on how that first phase goes you can decide if you want to pay for an Architect to be managing the build or just be available on an hourly basis. Do you even get on well?

 

Start looking for builders. Any nice house you see being worked on stop and tell them you might need a builder and ask to look around. The more sites you can see the better. These unannounced visits are better than getting the builder to take you to see one finished- that one will be his mother's house 🙂 Look to see how tidy the site is. If the plumbing is in are the pipes neatly laid out or a mess?  What are his views on the level of insulation required by the building regs? Does he see it as a pain to meet or an inadequate target? What does he do to ensure the house is air tight? Has he installed MVHR before?

 

[Jilly]

Have you considered approaching the architect who did the original plans, especially if you stay with the Class Q permission?  They would likely have a good feel for the structural works needed to go with their design and they would produced Building Control Drawings for you and be half way there with the drawings.

I've just done a stable conversion and I stupidly changed architects to get the BC drawings done by a friend. It was a big mistake as they weren't fully invested as it wasn't their baby and it costed a lot more in the end. 

[ETC]

On 11/04/2023 at 07:19, ChrisF8 said:

Hi, 

 

This is our first self build/barn conversion and I’m finding the design process a bit confusing so I wonder if you can help me with who I might need to appoint and when.

 

We’ve basically had class Q permission granted on a barn conversion. The plans I have are for the planning only and drawn up by an architect (not someone I appointed). I’ve been told I need to appoint the following:

 

Structural engineer - to check the load bearing of the frame and see if we need to underpin. Yes. But negotiate the professional services and the fees you will need to pay.

 

Architect - to draw up construction plans. Not necessarily. An architectural technician is fine and could be cheaper.

 

Quantity Surveyor  - to work out estimates for the build. Only if you need to keep tight control on the project costs. Again. negotiate what you need, when you need it and the fees you need to pay. A brief break-down of costs will be cheaper than a full BoQ and schedules. I wouldn't think you would need a full BoQs but you may wish to retain a QS to verify any cost claims the contractor make. For example he may claim £10,000 for whatever when in reality he has only carried out 3/4 of that work.

 

is this correct? And in the right order?

 

Any recommendations for the services appreciated

 

You might want to start with appointing your architect or architectural technician. Then let them appoint the other disciplines. For added comfort you may want a collateral warranty but this is very rarely provided for domestic projects. Let the A/AT appoint all other disciplines to keep everything in a one stop shop. You don't want to appoint each separately if you can help it - they will blame each other of something goes wrong or if there is a delay in getting information between them.

 

You should also think about entering into a contract with the A/AT and any contractor. There are quite a few standard contracts out there that basically list what you want and the cost of providing that for you.

 

On 11/04/2023 at 07:19, ChrisF8 said:

 

 

[saveasteading]

On 12/04/2023 at 20:56, Temp said:

Do you even get on well?

It is teamwork, but you are the client. Make sure they realise this. If you don't quite get on at first, then that will likely continue.

Don't be embarrassed at speaking to several, at least at first.

 

On 11/04/2023 at 07:19, ChrisF8 said:

I’m finding the design process a bit confusing 

Construction is confusing. It is one-off manufacture in a field. Then there are aesthetics and technical matters.

 

Conversion is more difficult than nes build, so make sure your advisors are experienced in it