MCS accredited ( and willing) installers, where are you ?

[Post and beam]

I am starting to despair of the whole ASHP saga.

See the Chelmer thread. £12300 + VAT for supply only.

We all know that the parts are available to buy and what they cost. I am not capable of doing this job but there clearly are people that are.  Where are you all ?

[ReedRichards]

Personally, I find Heat Geek a bit OTT but you could try one of their "assured" installers: https://www.heatgeek.com/find-a-heat-geek/

[ProDave]

I have said many times before all you need once you have bought the kit, is a plumber and an electrician that are both able to read the instruction manual.  I have done a few now and estimate 2 days per trade to install.

 

But a lot of trades, particularly it seems plumbers don't want to do this.

 

I suspect they maybe afraid if liability if it does not work?  I have take on such jobs on the understanding someone else designed it, I am there just to connect it, and if the performance is not up to customer expectations then it is not my problem.

 

This forum and the famous Jeremy's heat loss calculation spreadsheet will help you design and size a system.

 

One thing I did as a sanity check when the build was just an insulated but otherwise bare shell, I ran a simple electric convector heater of known power 24/7 for a few days and plotted internal and external temperature.  From that it was easy to calculate the actual heat loss from the building and confirm it matched the theoretical heat loss from the spreadsheet.  That gave me the confidence to carry on and install the ASHP.

[Conor]

A monoblock is super simple to install, buy the kit yourself, set it in place, get a spark and local plumber in to connect and commission. I think it cost me about £1200 that way. It's all in the design and sizing anyway, installation is easy (esp with a preplumbed cylinder and buffer, there's just a handful of connections to do.)

[JamesPa]

After receiving about 10 quotes I too have yet to find an MCS installer who I would trust to do the job.  As several have said it's a feeding frenzy stimulated by government grants which come and go randomly without any coherent long term strategy or review of effectiveness. 

 

My guess is that the 'real' plumbers have plenty of work without having to bother with the hassle of applying for here-one- day-gone-the-next government grants, so won't get involved until the situation stabilises.  And MCS is a government mandated private monopoly that has written itself not just into the process for government grants, but also into the planning rules for 'permitted development'.

 

I have just a couple more dice to roll before giving up trying, ignoring MCS, and doing the job myself with the help of a non-mcs electrician. It's clearly an easy job, the real work is in the design which I can do myself (better than a 'professional' because I have detailed knowledge of my house). 

 

It means I need express planning consent, but so be it.  As a bonus I get a system which is more closely tailored to my requirements as opposed to what the salesmen wants to sell.

 

Most won't bother in the face of this adversity which is doubtless one of the reasons why the uptake on the BUS grant is low and the UK lags much of Europe when it comes to heat pump penetration.

 

Sad really.

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by JamesPa
Added clarity

[ReedRichards]

5 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

it's a feeding frenzy stimulated by government grants

 

5 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

the uptake on the BUS grant is low

 

Surely it has got to be one or the other?  Either the BUS is popular and keeping all the MCS installers busy or it's not popular and you should find MCS installers kicking their heels?

[JamesPa]

Just now, ReedRichards said:

 

 

Surely it has got to be one or the other?  Either the BUS is popular and keeping all the MCS installers busy or it's not popular and you should find MCS installers kicking their heels?

Not necessarily.  A couple of the MCS companies I have spoken to tell me they can't get the plumbers.  My feeling is that an 'overlay' of MCS companies has developed who subcontract the actual installation.  _They_ probably have capacity matched to demand, but the real plumbers are not bothering to engage with them because they have plenty of work that does not require the MCS overhead and cream-off.  

[crispy_wafer]

I don't know if I'm capable or not yet!  But most of it is mechanical connections right, so I'm more than capable of following a manufacturers diagram and joining pipes?  The bit I'm more worried about is making it look neat and tidy so I can put pics on here...

 

But my experience to date...

 

Did my heat loss calcs, used jeremy spreadsheet, and the freedom one, both came up approx 5kW, had an MCS guy do a survey who provided a nice estimate, his heat loss calc, I presume he just totted down the details and sent it to his account manager at Mitsubishi, or local plumbing outlet and also came back with 5kW at -2.8.  So pretty confident in those numbers I toddled off and purchased a 2 week old 6kW Grant heat pump (wrongly sized by Grant for an MCS company) £1300.  Came with flexi hoses 2 controllers and some wiring boxes, cables and bits.

 

Thought I'd buy a matching Grant pre plumbed cylinder, as that has all the gubbins attached, wiring centre etc.  Think I may have to pay retail on that, so that will be me about £3500 so far.  Local Plumber at 300 to connect up the cylinder and commission for 2 days.

 

I need some rubber feet I think at about £60, About 6-8m 28mm copper, a handful of elbows, some caleffi anti freeze valves, some isolation valves, a mag filter, and expansion vessel, maybe a buffer/volumiser (still not sure, it might be overcomplicating things), Insulation for the external pipework, pipe clips and stuff.  Reckon that will take me to about 4500 give or take.

 

Then the spark for a day, I'll lay out the cabling, but I think the pre plumbed takes most of the hard work out it.

 

After BUS grant my quotes have been around 7-8k but with a 170l cylinder, I want a 250...  Question is, is a saving of 2-3 worth the hassle of DIYing it

 

If it goes to ratsh*t i've only got myself to blame, which I'm more than comfortable with.  we wont go cold, I've got A2A installed, and one of them polluting things.  The cylinder has an immersion so I'll have some hot water if needed.

[Post and beam]

1 hour ago, Conor said:

local plumber in to connect and commission

Well there is the problem right there. Easy to say, not so easy to find one which is my issue in a nut shell. Since i posted last night i have e mailed 4 installers from the .gov website of accredited  installers. Lets see what transpires

 

1 hour ago, Conor said:

installation is easy

Agree. Thats why i cannot see the £10k ish fee for doing so.

[ProDave]

41 minutes ago, crispy_wafer said:

Then the spark for a day, I'll lay out the cabling, but I think the pre plumbed takes most of the hard work out it.

Talk to us here about that.  The Grant is fairly simple to wire in it's basic configuration, the one I fitted, bought as a complete package came with Grant's own wiring centre and a volumiser and the pre plumbed tank.

 

Here is a picture of inside

 

 

The tall thin white box is the volumiser and the frey box just to the left of the UFH manifolds is the Grant wiring centre.

 

You may find the 6kW ASHP is a little under sized if your heat loss calculations say 5kW.  If the heat loss if 5kW on the coldest day, then your heat pump will have to run pretty much 24/7 but it will have to spend some time heating DHW.  Just be prepared to have a back up heater, even if just a plug in convector heater if a few days of th year it struggles.

[SteamyTea]

Costing The Earth had a bit about the problems with installations.

Not listened to all of it, will catch up later.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001kqzy?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

[crispy_wafer]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

You may find the 6kW ASHP is a little under sized if your heat loss calculations say 5kW.  If the heat loss if 5kW on the coldest day, then your heat pump will have to run pretty much 24/7 but it will have to spend some time heating DHW.  Just be prepared to have a back up heater, even if just a plug in convector heater if a few days of th year it struggles.

 

Thankyou (love that picture), yes, it had been crossing my mind if it the margin was a bit tight for DHW.  But we have a stove, and then A2A in the bedrooms.

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, crispy_wafer said:

 

Thankyou (love that picture), yes, it had been crossing my mind if it the margin was a bit tight for DHW.  But we have a stove, and then A2A in the bedrooms.

You should be sorted then.

 

Re the cabling, the outside unit will need power and several control signals.  2.5mm 3 core flex in conduit will do for the power, for the control, I would buy a length of something like 1mm YY control cable 8 cores or so, 10 if you can find it.

[JamesPa]

3 hours ago, Post and beam said:

4 hours ago, Conor said:

local plumber in to connect and commission

Well there is the problem right there. Easy to say, not so easy to find one which is my issue in a nut shell. Since i posted last night i have e mailed 4 installers from the .gov website of accredited  installers. Lets see what transpires

I think that's the point many here are making, as soon as you go down the MCS accredited route the high charges come in and you struggle to find anyone. 

 

Alternatively you may well find that a local plumber, not listed on the MCS or gov.uk website will do it, but then you cant claim the grant nor can you (strictly speaking) install under PD.  It depends on how much risk/personal involvement you want/have time or skills for. 

[JohnMo]

Had my ASHP with power yesterday, pre ran all the cables, connected everything except the consumer unit, had the electrician check everything over and do the final connection in the consumer unit. Electrician and his apprentice were here for 3 hours, including first fix wiring our summer house.

 

Just need to complete the plumbing and I am ready to go - just to many competing jobs on the go.