Drainage Nightmare!

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 08:22, Kelvin said:

You said in the op that one of the options is to discharge into a waterway. Is this just the EA saying you can (generally after exploring all other options) or there is a waterway/ditch nearby you could discharge to? 

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Yes, there is a river and mill stream around 150m downhill past the pipe, so if we have a STP in place, would sort the permit problem (as in no need for one). It seems like the only sensible way to make everyone - including land owner property - compliant.  

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their responses. It’s been frustrating and frankly quite lonely trying to find help and support so far, so to have had some great and thoughtful responses on here has given us a new energy to push forward, no matter how messy it gets. 
 

thanks all! 

[Kelvin]

But still needs land owners permission to do the works on the land to get there. 
 

I know you said it’s hard to speak with the land owner directly. However you really ought to try every avenue. It might be they are unaware of the degree of problem this is causing you but equally they might well be the driving force behind it. 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

Basic of most basic maps, it seems obvious to me what to do, and how to do it. 
 

Photo of end of pipe

[Kelvin]

I’m sure you would have said but I assume there isn’t a ditch that follows the road? 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 08:47, Kelvin said:

But still needs land owners permission to do the works on the land to get there. 
 

I know you said it’s hard to speak with the land owner directly. However you really ought to try every avenue. It might be they are unaware of the degree of problem this is causing you but equally they might well be the driving force behind it. 

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So far, we’ve not managed to track him down. Emails and phone calls have gone unanswered. I might have to camp outside their gates until someone lets me in. But I definitely agree, this can’t go on. 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 08:53, Kelvin said:

I’m sure you would have said but I assume there isn’t a ditch that follows the road? 

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Correct there isn’t. 

[ToughButterCup]

  On 29/03/2023 at 08:37, Losingsleepoverdrainage said:

....

Will try and send over a map this morning.

 

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Happy to help annonomise the graphic if that helps. PM me and attach the graphic if you like. ... I'm bored as hell recovering from a hip operation at the moment, so I've got time on my hands .....

 

[joe90]

  On 29/03/2023 at 08:59, ToughButterCup said:

recovering from a hip operation at the moment,

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Sorry to hear that, here,s fir a speedy recovery👍

[Kelvin]

Where did you think the pipe terminated when you bought the house and what difference would that have made to your problem if it did? 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 09:07, Kelvin said:

Where did you think the pipe terminated when you bought the house and what difference would that have made to your problem if it did? 

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We thought (had a doc to demonstrate amongst deeds and paperwork) it drained to a soakaway on the farm below us. Neighbours under this impression too. And we only discovered last week that the 4th house on our row was connected to our pipe, they were not aware of this. Our homes are converted from an old barn of the farm, which has since been purchased by the estate. No way of tracking down who fitted the drainage for all properties now, and I’d imagine they would own up to nothing.

 

To clarify, we purchased our house at end of Dec 2019. I mentioned 2 years ago earlier in thread, it feels like 2 (we all lost a year or two somewhere) but was in fact 3 so pre new binding rules, but would still have been on radar of solicitors/estate agents etc. We should have had a drainage survey at the time, I know that.

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 08:59, ToughButterCup said:

 

Happy to help annonomise the graphic if that helps. PM me and attach the graphic if you like. ... I'm bored as hell recovering from a hip operation at the moment, so I've got time on my hands .....

 

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Oh thank you, but Mr has managed to draft one up.

 

Feel better soon! 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

Not sure if this is any more clear

[Temp]

  On 29/03/2023 at 07:05, Losingsleepoverdrainage said:

The biggest issue we have is that our current tank is undersized, we are producing too much water and need a permit. So EA will need to see that where we are draining to a legal end point in order to issue permit. If we were within the legal amount, I’d probably opt to just get a STP installed and let the land owner deal with the rest.

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I think the amount you can discharge increases from 2m^2 to 5m^2 when you replace a septic tank with a treatment plant.

 

Edit: Ah sorry that's only if you can discharge to a water course not a soakaway...

https://www.charlesrussellspeechlys.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/private-client/2022/buying-or-selling-a-house-with-a-septic-tank-what-you-need-to-know/

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Temp

[ToughButterCup]

Ok: forewarned is fore-armed @Losingsleepoverdrainage. 🤨 I need to tell you this (apologies of you already know).

In seeking to to discharge elsewhere in land that isn't yours to cross : 

• you create a potential 'ransom strip': the owner can (justifiably) charge you to put your foul drainage pipe across the land.

We had one neighbour who threw a hissy fit, and another neighbour who was completely cool about the process - 

• made sure that an estate agent was consulted who gave both parties a reasonable price for us to have a covenant which lasts 88 years (why 88 - search me) 
• paid for the landowners legal fees
• dug the trench within a week of the agreement being signed.

You are correct

  On 29/03/2023 at 08:55, Losingsleepoverdrainage said:

... But I definitely agree, this can’t go on. 

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The process above gives a fair to all way out of the problem.

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 10:51, Temp said:

 

I think the amount you can discharge increases from 2m^2 to 5m^2 when you replace a septic tank with a treatment plant.

 

Edit: Ah sorry that's only if you can discharge to a water course not a soakaway...

https://www.charlesrussellspeechlys.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/private-client/2022/buying-or-selling-a-house-with-a-septic-tank-what-you-need-to-know/

 

 

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No worries! Thanks for the reply 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

We’ve now had a conversation this morning with the land manager, where he threatened to chuck a bucket of concrete down our end of the pipe and cut us off! He claims we have no right to drain across the field towards the farm. We do. Nice chap! 

So much drama! 

[crooksey]

What did the percolation test come back with, when you say not suitable what was its value?

 

From a contractors point of view, install a shared plant, pipe to river.

 

If it was my house, I would want my own STP with its own discharge.

 

If I was selling, install cheapest STP on my land and pipe into the existing shared output (if building control allow it). This could be done in 2-3 days, landscaping afterwards may be costly though.

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 11:39, ToughButterCup said:

Ok: forewarned is fore-armed @Losingsleepoverdrainage. 🤨 I need to tell you this (apologies of you already know).

In seeking to to discharge elsewhere in land that isn't yours to cross : 

• you create a potential 'ransom strip': the owner can (justifiably) charge you to put your foul drainage pipe across the land.

We had one neighbour who threw a hissy fit, and another neighbour who was completely cool about the process - 

• made sure that an estate agent was consulted who gave both parties a reasonable price for us to have a covenant which lasts 88 years (why 88 - search me) 
• paid for the landowners legal fees
• dug the trench within a week of the agreement being signed.

You are correct

 

The process above gives a fair to all way out of the problem.

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This sounds interesting, will look into this with solicitor. 
 

[Kelvin]

  On 29/03/2023 at 12:36, Losingsleepoverdrainage said:

We’ve now had a conversation this morning with the land manager, where he threatened to chuck a bucket of concrete down our end of the pipe and cut us off! He claims we have no right to drain across the field towards the farm. We do. Nice chap! 

So much drama! 

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Bloody hell. What an arsehole. Although inevitable it was going to go in this direction. You need get legal about it now which, of course will escalate things. Do they own all the land around you including across the road? How big are the gardens of the 4 properties caught up in this mess. 

[ProDave]

Looking at that pipe, my guess is initially a drainage field was installed, which proved inadequate and the land became a swamp, so some enterprising chap extended it to run out onto a bit of rough ground nobody ever goes near and it would be alraight.

 

but your drain surveyor has found him out.

 

Can you re do the sketch in more detail showing the in and out connections to each treatment plant or septic tank please?

 

Who owns the land immediately behind your houses?  Is is the same land owner?  Or someone else who might be more reasonable?

[Temp]

You said there is no ditch by the road but are there any surface water drains along/in the edge of the road? Frequently in the past old ditches had pipes dropped in them and filled in when the road was widened (so called piped ditch). 

 

  On 29/03/2023 at 12:36, Losingsleepoverdrainage said:

We’ve now had a conversation this morning with the land manager, where he threatened to chuck a bucket of concrete down our end of the pipe and cut us off! He claims we have no right to drain across the field towards the farm. We do. Nice chap! 

So much drama! 

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I think time to discuss your rights with your solicitor or a firm that specialises in drainage rights.

 

Does he own the land all the way to the river? If you can prove to him you have a right to discharge he might be more amenable to allowing the pipe to be extended to the river.

 

 

 

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

  On 29/03/2023 at 12:36, Losingsleepoverdrainage said:

We’ve now had a conversation this morning with the land manager, where he threatened to chuck a bucket of concrete down our end of the pipe and cut us off! He claims we have no right to drain across the field towards the farm....

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That appears to me to be threatening behavior.

You have no alternative now other than to go  formal.

 

 

[Losingsleepoverdrainage]

  On 29/03/2023 at 13:45, ProDave said:

Looking at that pipe, my guess is initially a drainage field was installed, which proved inadequate and the land became a swamp, so some enterprising chap extended it to run out onto a bit of rough ground nobody ever goes near and it would be alraight.

 

but your drain surveyor has found him out.

 

Can you re do the sketch in more detail showing the in and out connections to each treatment plant or septic tank please?

 

Who owns the land immediately behind your houses?  Is is the same land owner?  Or someone else who might be more reasonable?

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Yes I agree, although I think it’s been shortened rather than extended. Another neighbour (not connected to issue) remembers in last 30 years seeing water draining onto the road from further down the site, on the reg. Suspects the old farm manager cut it, as it suddenly stopped one day. 

 

See sketch. End point is pipe connected to a tank. Not a septic tank, but likely an old slurry tank from farm yard above. No longer serving original purpose though, just a chamber as far as we know. It has a corrugated roof just covered in soil, under an access track to the field beyond.
 

And yep, land owner owns everything around us. 
Many thanks

[ToughButterCup]

You are not alone in suffering unreasonable and threatening behaviour where soft and smelly stuff is concerned.

Here's my neighbour cutting off (by nailing the gate shut)  access to our Skeptic Tank when he heard we had gained Planning Permission.

 

 

I can't be sure, but I think I remember that I might have reversed the nailing process with the bucket on my digger.

Surprisingly easy to make mistakes like that I am told. 

 

From that day to this, we've not paid a penny towards pumping the tank . Saved £400.

That makes it about £10 per nail.

Edited March 29, 2023 by ToughButterCup