What is there to know about lighting? (asks a beginner)

[Garald]

So, my architect is keeping out of light and lamp choices (she's unhappy because she wants more money - well, that, and my girlfriend vetoed the terracotta tiles she suggested - why she should care about that is not so clear, unless she was looking forward to add the pictures to her portfolio). The builder will still install them, but I have to choose them.

 

In brief: what is there to know about lighting?

- Sure, one has to choose more lux (lumens per sq.m.) for a working space than for a working space (or a bathroom) than for a bedroom; there are lists of suggested lux per space online.

- OK, OK, warmer (more yellow) light for bedrooms than for reading rooms.

- Lampshades are not an affectation, but useful, in that they keep us from hurting our eyes; on the other hand, they must affect how many lux really get through. How do I compute that?

 

I must say I tend to see interior design as being pretty analogous to feng shui, but if there are things that actually make sense that I should know, please tell me! 

 

(For instance, is it true that one needs to balance out cool light with warmer light, and vice versa? How?)

[MikeSharp01]

Lighting seems to me to be one of the biggest deals of self building if the work we, and many others on here, have put into it is is anything to go by. The types are myriad the location choices are mystic and the control theory and practice is a rocket scientist's dream. If you toddle about on here you can gather the basics right enough but the proverbial devil is probably in the detail. 

[SteamyTea]

I used to work at the Royal National Institute of Blind People.

They spend £100ks on lighting.

We just turned them on to full power, and then off when we left.

 

As the old saying goes, 'if you cannot measure it, it is not science'.

 

[joth]

16 hours ago, Garald said:

what is there to know about lighting?

Lots! You can do a Masters degree or even a PhD in it.

I'd start at the other end: rather than what do you need to DIY the design, what do you actually want as a home owner occupier?

Is a pendant or two per room perfectly fine? Or when you view a house with many architectural lighting features, illuminating reveals, ceiling voids, work areas etc independently and with different scenes for mood/time of day, does that excite you?

Do you want a  simple on/off switch per room, or more elaborate/smart scene based controls?

Depending on aspiration, you can either get an electrical contractor to throw up their stock solution, or pay a professional designer, or something in between 

 

 

[Garald]

Let me state my ground-floor ideas first, so that people can tell whether I'm completely wrong-headed. (It's a small surface - more than half of the house's ground floor is made up by a GP's office and the coop's corridor).

 

Former garage, now a bike shed/storage space/technical room (internal part of the heat-pump, water tank, etc):

a powerful naked LED lightbulb will do (ca. 2500 lumens)

I'll also get a wall light.

 

Tiny laundry room/coat room: https://www.ikea.com/fr/fr/p/tross-rail-plafond-3-spots-blanc-60262659/?fbclid=IwAR1m7kC1jn99yt_XHiWX01kRs8ueh19RqebMPpMIRr1I9dai-XES2gWLZw4

 

Entryway: 

https://www.casa-moro.fr/.../lampe-pendante.../blanche...

Alternative (if the above seems too blue):

https://www.casa-moro.fr/.../suspension-orientale-salma...

(white)

https://www.casa-moro.fr/.../lampe-pendante-houta.../blanche

 

What kind of white light I'll get there doesn't matter much, since it will all be modified by the colored Moroccan lamp.

 

Here's a photograph of the entryway as it used to be. The gray synthetic flooring has been removed and is being replaced by insulation + very convincing fake hardwood (Ecuran). I'll put a William-Morris thermal curtain on the grey metallic door. The wall on the right here now opens into the tiny laundry room/coat room.

I'll also get two wall lights here. A friend was suggesting

https://www.paul-neuhaus.de/arm-lampe-wand-halterung-holz-weiss/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIycWd6ejW_QIVwevVCh3hiQ9XEAYYASABEgI05vD_BwE&fbclid=IwAR2FKl_trF4ShnbLHsesiD2AKxG2dxG-68XztAoGb0KYckdWtSqAKVRlKXw

- with large, naked warm-light LEDs, presumably?

 

Gf's home office/my parents' room when they visit/guest room (hencefort "studio"):

for the ceiling lamp, I'd go for a neutral white light, since it will be both bedroom and office room, and for an intermediate power (at least 800 lumens, no more than 1600 lumens).

GF says the IKEA student classic would be fine.

 

Also, five wall lights - I guess I'll choose the wall lights to be warm when close to the Murphy bed and cold when close to gf's desk (by the window, which is NWN-facing).

Oh, btw, we have chosen a colder white for the walls of the studio, so that it feels larger.

 

 

 

[Garald]

12 minutes ago, joth said:

Lots! You can do a Masters degree or even a PhD in it.

I'd start at the other end: rather than what do you need to DIY the design, what do you actually want as a home owner occupier?

Is a pendant or two per room perfectly fine? Or when you view a house with many architectural lighting features, illuminating reveals, ceiling voids, work areas etc independently and with different scenes for mood/time of day, does that excite you?

 

It's not the sort of thing that excites me. As I said, I tend to regard interior design as akin to feng shui - but then, if I like an idea and can implement on a budget, I may run with it. (But people who have been following my home renovation project here may already know that.) 

 

12 minutes ago, joth said:

Do you want a  simple on/off switch per room, or more elaborate/smart scene based controls?

 

I'm concerned about proprietary electronics that may become obsolete if the company makes them goes belly-up. Some shade controls would be nice, but I think we've considered only off-on switches.

 

12 minutes ago, joth said:

Depending on aspiration, you can either get an electrical contractor to throw up their stock solution, or pay a professional designer, or something in between 

 

I have a good general contractor who has been taking care of everything and will take care of the installation. I can trust him to put some extra LED lighting when appropriate - in fact he has already done so without asking, and did it well, I think:

 

 

[Sparrowhawk]

5 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

As the old saying goes, 'if you cannot measure it, it is not science'.

Oh definitely.

 

Lighting is an art, a source of subtle emotions and "feels".  It can lift a space from the ordinary to extraordinary, and change our perceptions and responses.

 

I appreciate the results, but how you get there I am still figuring out.

[Carrerahill]

18 hours ago, Garald said:

So, my architect is keeping out of light and lamp choices (she's unhappy because she wants more money - well, that, and my girlfriend vetoed the terracotta tiles she suggested - why she should care about that is not so clear, unless she was looking forward to add the pictures to her portfolio). The builder will still install them, but I have to choose them.

 

In brief: what is there to know about lighting?

- Sure, one has to choose more lux (lumens per sq.m.) for a working space than for a working space (or a bathroom) than for a bedroom; there are lists of suggested lux per space online.

- OK, OK, warmer (more yellow) light for bedrooms than for reading rooms.

- Lampshades are not an affectation, but useful, in that they keep us from hurting our eyes; on the other hand, they must affect how many lux really get through. How do I compute that?

 

I must say I tend to see interior design as being pretty analogous to feng shui, but if there are things that actually make sense that I should know, please tell me! 

 

(For instance, is it true that one needs to balance out cool light with warmer light, and vice versa? How?)

A lot, in fact, I did a BA in lighting design (and I had the opportunity to do a PhD) and specialised in it for about 15 years, although now I am a consulting building services engineer I still do a lot of lighting design as every project we do still needs lighting.

 

Don't get too hung up on lux levels and uniformities and glare and what not for domestic lighting, even when I do domestic lighting I still just use my professional knowledge and best practise.

 

The issue with domestic is that it is not used like typical commercial buildings, offices, it is an office, you light it like an office, or a warehouse, you light it like a warehouse. Houses are a different kettle of fish, you can put a single pendant kit into most rooms and that complies with what BC want to see. However, we all know we will add desk lights and table lights and floor lights. Kitchens are about one of the only rooms in a house that needs proper, as close to a "design" as you need for task lighting. If I am doing a kitchen in apartments etc. I usually go for about a 500-600lumen downlight, say 2.4m ceiling height, spaced at about 1000-1200mm in a row or array to suit along the counters - typically I will pull out a second row if there is a dining room table shown on the architects GA's. Bathrooms being about the only other room that needs dedicated properly "designed" lighting or else you are stuck with it.

 

Corridors I would typically put the same in in about a 1200-1500mm spacing.

 

I have my go to downlights for these applications and I know the optics will give me the right distribution to work in these spaces for me. Very occasionally I will fire up the lighting design software and do a quick check calc if I want to do something a bit different. 

 

"Design" when used in a domestic situation, to me and for many interior designers and even lighting designers is just picking nice lighting, and placing it in such a way to create some nice ambient and useable light. A well placed downlight to create a scallop of light down a tall wall above a stair, or a row of small (e.g. 35mm) down lights along an oak balustrade in a hall, or some recessed LED strip into shelfs. Dimmers are also your friend when it comes to domestic lighting as it lets you add all the light you want, but without the concern you might end up with your living room sitting a 600 lux!, however, make sure you pair your source and dimmer or you will have a hell of a time. I have often put in standalone DALI dimmers (Osram DALI MCU) with DALI driver luminaires to guarantee nice dimming and when done wisely, the over-cost is not that much. 

 

Houses, in my opinion should always be 2700-3000K light. I hate seeing 4000K (or worse) in domestic settings, however, that is my opinion, I think some people like the clinical look. 

[Carrerahill]

32 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

Lighting is an art, a source of subtle emotions and "feels". 

Yes, but it is also a science. 

[SteamyTea]

24 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Yes, but it is also a science. 

 

26 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

I did a BA in lighting design

What does BA stand for?

[Garald]

27 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

If I am doing a kitchen in apartments etc. I usually go for about a 500-600lumen downlight, say 2.4m ceiling height, spaced at about 1000-1200mm in a row or array to suit along the counters - typically I will pull out a second row if there is a dining room table shown on the architects GA's. Bathrooms being about the only other room that needs dedicated properly "designed" lighting or else you are stuck with it.

 

I get only one kitchen ceiling light (plus under-the-counter LEDs, presumably - should check), unless I pull some sort of trick (obviously I could get one of those Cerberus-like combinations of three lights).

 

27 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Corridors I would typically put the same in in about a 1200-1500mm spacing.

 

I have my go to downlights for these applications and I know the optics will give me the right distribution to work in these spaces for me. Very occasionally I will fire up the lighting design software and do a quick check calc if I want to do something a bit different. 

 

"Design" when used in a domestic situation, to me and for many interior designers and even lighting designers is just picking nice lighting, and placing it in such a way to create some nice ambient and useable light. A well placed downlight to create a scallop of light down a tall wall above a stair, or a row of small (e.g. 35mm) down lights along an oak balustrade in a hall, or some recessed LED strip into shelfs. Dimmers are also your friend when it comes to domestic lighting as it lets you add all the light you want, but without the concern you might end up with your living room sitting a 600 lux!, however, make sure you pair your source and dimmer or you will have a hell of a time. I have often put in standalone DALI dimmers (Osram DALI MCU) with DALI driver luminaires to guarantee nice dimming and when done wisely, the over-cost is not that much. 

 

This sound like a good choice for the main room, which will double as a library/music room and a dining room. (Living room? Whoever heard of a "living room"?) I'll ask the contractor whether we can put in dimmers.

 

27 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Houses, in my opinion should always be 2700-3000K light. I hate seeing 4000K (or worse) in domestic settings, however, that is my opinion, I think some people like the clinical look. 

 

I was thinking of warm light pretty much everywhere, with perhaps some mixture of warm and cold wall lights to balance things out. For instance, the studio downstairs won't get a lot of direct sunlight - why not have a warm ceiling light, two warm wall lights and two cold wall lights? Of course, even if that's a mistake, changing the lightbulbs will be trivial.

 

Also, cold light can be good for desk lamps or kitchen lights, no?

[Garald]

Two questions:

- What are some sources for quality lamps on a budget?

(Anything with stained glass for a reasonable price would be particularly welcome.)

- Where can one get ceiling lamp cords that one can easily lengthen, so as to lower the lamp for cleaning?

[Carrerahill]

9 hours ago, Garald said:

Two questions:

- What are some sources for quality lamps on a budget?

(Anything with stained glass for a reasonable price would be particularly welcome.)

- Where can one get ceiling lamp cords that one can easily lengthen, so as to lower the lamp for cleaning?

https://jmoncrieff.co.uk/lighting

 

https://www.creative-cables.co.uk/content/67-components

 

https://www.creative-cables.co.uk/content/68-Indoor-lighting

 

http://www.spatial-lighting.co.uk/shop

 

Remember, you can go simple now, and change them as you learn to live with the space and funds become available again. 

[Carrerahill]

17 hours ago, Garald said:

 

I get only one kitchen ceiling light (plus under-the-counter LEDs, presumably - should check), unless I pull some sort of trick (obviously I could get one of those Cerberus-like combinations of three lights).

 

 

This sound like a good choice for the main room, which will double as a library/music room and a dining room. (Living room? Whoever heard of a "living room"?) I'll ask the contractor whether we can put in dimmers.

 

 

I was thinking of warm light pretty much everywhere, with perhaps some mixture of warm and cold wall lights to balance things out. For instance, the studio downstairs won't get a lot of direct sunlight - why not have a warm ceiling light, two warm wall lights and two cold wall lights? Of course, even if that's a mistake, changing the lightbulbs will be trivial.

 

Also, cold light can be good for desk lamps or kitchen lights, no?

Can you not do a deal regarding the kitchen, power only run to pre-cored holes for downlights or something? I am not aware of your situation, are you self building and have a fixed price with agreements in place, built to plan and the builder will hit your with variations for any changes?

 

You could always use tuneable colour if you want some cool light. 

 

4000K light can be good for reading and study as it is closer to natural daylight, it is also a favoured in offices and generally the workplace as it is good for focus and alertness, this is due to more blue light from the light spectrum being available, blue light supresses melatonin production, a hormone which makes us sleepy and drives our circadian cycle, something that is heavily impacted by light, it would have been sunlight, however with all the artificial light we are exposed to now it stuffs things up a bit. So sitting in 4000K light at 2300hrs when your thinking of reading a bit and heading off to the land of nod is not conducive, however, when you need to read something and stay alert and focused or do some work, it may be, albeit you are artificially influencing it. This is why visual devices often have a night time setting to remove the coolness, the "blueness" from the screen to help reduce the influence on your body. 

 

When Scottish Power did their new HQ in Glasgow someone got wind of this, they opted for 6500K lighting in all the offices, it looks hideous from the outside and must be worse to work in, but they heard it would keep everyone alert and focused, then, across the road at the RoS, they were kind to their staff and installed circadian rhythm friendly lighting which tracks the colour temp of the daylight, so 2300K in the morning, peaking at I think 5500K in the afternoon for a while before heading back to 2300K. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Carrerahill

[Mike]

On 13/03/2023 at 18:15, Carrerahill said:

Houses, in my opinion should always be 2700-3000K light. I hate seeing 4000K (or worse) in domestic settings, however, that is my opinion, I think some people like the clinical look.

I'm one of them! For a modern home 4000K is perfect for me in all rooms - a good balance between too warm and too cold that doesn't overly distort colours.

 

I know that many people like warmer in bedrooms & living-rooms, but personally I'd only do that if I lived in a 'heritage' building, had wood panelling, or similar. I'd only go higher if I wanted to deliberately enhance the whiteness of a room (I once used 6000K to brighten up some dingy white-painted subterranean corridors previously lit with something like 2700K).

 

On 13/03/2023 at 18:50, Garald said:

why not have a warm ceiling light, two warm wall lights and two cold wall lights?

Because mixing colour temperatures looks strange and unplanned (unless you plan to have them on at separate times, not simultaneously).

 

Other tips:

• Do go for layering - ambient, task & accent lighting.
• Ambient lighting doesn't have to mean downlighters in regular grids in every room; that produces even but bland light. They're usually better when used to wash curtains or walls, mixed with narrower-beam spots directed at tables, shelves, etc.
• Do use dimmers on the ambient lighting in bedrooms & living rooms.
• Do look at the colour rendering index (CRI) of the light source - a higher rating shows objects closer to their 'real' colours (<80 poor, >90 great).

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Mike

[Garald]

37 minutes ago, Mike said:

Other tips:

• Do go for layering - ambient, task & accent lighting.

 

So, warm ambient light, neutral wall lights, cold desk lamps?

 

This is not at all a heritage building, but it is a house from 1930 that has been improved in a somewhat haphazard way by successive owners.

 

This will be a library-corridor with a reading took. I'll put white-blue moroccan lamps next to the two non-stained-glass skylights (you can see one here). Should I go for 4000K for the ambient light? Or 2500K (not that it will matter that much, given the color lamps)?

 

This is the bedroom. Warm ambient light, I assume.

 

 

The long main room (can't find the pictures I took just a few days ago!) will be a combination library/music room/dining room (who needs a "living room"?).  I really don't know what to do there - one half warm, one half cold? Warm ambient lighting in both halves, with cold wall lights? Or the other way around?

 

 

 

 

[Garald]

Ah, here are my latest pictures of the main room (really a double room). What should I understand by "layering"? *Not* mixing lights of different warmth, but simply mixing directions - ceiling lamps, wall lamps, etc.? I assume reading lights can have a different warmth than the other ones (colder, usually, though reading lights next to a bed should be warm). 

[Mike]

 

3 hours ago, Garald said:

What should I understand by "layering"? *Not* mixing lights of different warmth, but simply mixing directions - ceiling lamps, wall lamps, etc.?

This. Layering different types of lighting - ceiling lamps, wall lamps, spot lights, table lamps, floor lamps, etc. - to provide a variety of light intensities and suit different purposes.

Take a look at some of these : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ambient%2C+task%2C+accent+lighting

 

3 hours ago, Garald said:

I assume reading lights can have a different warmth than the other ones (colder, usually, though reading lights next to a bed should be warm).

It's best to stick with one colour temperature per room. In other words if you like warm lighting in a bedroom, stick to 2700K.

 

If you don't know what temperature lighting you like, you can always buy a few bulbs and test them out.

[Sparrowhawk]

14 hours ago, Mike said:

• Do look at the colour rendering index (CRI) of the light source - a higher rating shows objects closer to their 'real' colours (<80 poor, >90 great).

Can anyone recommend high-CRI bulbs available in the UK? I like to have v high (95+) in my studio and have been buying from abroad, but it's tricky to find ones that detail the spectrum and fit normal domestic light fittings.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Sparrowhawk said:

Can anyone recommend high-CRI bulbs available in the UK?

Soraa LED Vivid are the best I know, but aren't cheap - for example https://theledspecialist.co.uk/search/?q=soraa+vivid

 

Personally I'll probably be choosing Tridonic modules (or similar) on my upcoming project in lieu of GU10s - see this discussion:

 

[Nic]

On 16/03/2023 at 11:17, Mike said:

Soraa LED Vivid are the best I know, but aren't cheap - for example https://theledspecialist.co.uk/search/?q=soraa+vivid

 

Personally I'll probably be choosing Tridonic modules (or similar) on my upcoming project in lieu of GU10s - see this discussion:

 

 

ok this has taken me way out of my field of knowledge 😂 it wasn’t big anyway .  If someone would like to help me out with a plan, bulb dimmer control choices please PM me and I’d be massively grateful @Mike @Carrerahill 🙏