Does anyone have first hand experience of an archeaological survey

[Post and beam]

A condition on our grant of permission is an Archeaological survey. I knew this was coming and have recently e mailed 4 companies that might do the work. They have asked me what kind of survey, i believed they would tell me this so i am at a loss. Have not yet had a response from the planning dept as to what they mean in detail.

 

[Jilly]

Can you look on planning applications near your site and see what it is that might be there? And maybe see names of suitable survey companies. If it's anything like ecology, it can be quite an expensive exercise. 

[Roundtuit]

Whoever the planners consult (County archaeology department?) will spec the planning condition, so you really need that first.  I saved a lot of money finding an independent archaeologist rather than one of the larger consultancies that seem to dominate in our area.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Roundtuit
typo

[Temp]

In increasing order of cost..

 

A desk survey (paperwork exercise) to see if anything is known about the site.

A walk over of the site.

A watching brief where an archaeologist is on site while you dig your foundations.

A trial dig involving a trench across the site.

Full site excavation with a big team of people.

 

 If its not clear from the planning grant what they need I'd start with a desk survey and if nothing turns up submit it with a request to discharge the condition. If the site has known history the desk survey will/can recommend what to do next.

[Post and beam]

The planning dept recieved no response from Herts Archeaology after i put my application in. In my world if a department does not respond to a request for information then they have no interest and their input is struck from the requirement. Therefore removing any archeaological interest from the planning application. Gues what, thats not how it went.

21 hours ago, Jilly said:

And maybe see names of suitable survey companies.

Jilly, as i said i have a long list and have e mailed 4 of them. They are responsive and keen to quote for a survey. But they dont know what level of survey to conduct and therefore quote for. I am beginning to think that my super quick planning grant ( 10 weeks only) will now be held up by an unresponsive department of the state machinery.

 

[Temp]

What does the wording of the condition say?

 

If planning permission was granted less than 6 months ago you might be able to appeal the condition on the grounds that its not clear enough to be enforceable. Depends on the wording.

 

Normally you start with the desk study and see what that turns up. The person doing the desk study will normally advise in their report if more work is required. If none then submit the report with an application to discharge the condition.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Temp

[Roundtuit]

3 hours ago, Post and beam said:

The planning dept recieved no response from Herts Archeaology after i put my application in.

 

So the planners consulted Herts Archeaology, received no response, and added a condition anyway?  Is there anything from the Archeaology guys on the planning portal for your application that would add clarity perhaps?  I spoke to our Archeaology department directly (Cambs) to establish exactly what the requirement was, and to understand what would happen if they found anything 'interesting'.  We had to dig  2 trenches (under house and garage footprints), but no dramas.

[Post and beam]

19 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

We had to dig  2 trenches (under house and garage footprints)

What were the dimensions of the trenches please?

I have a guy with a mini digger lined up @ £225/day to come and dig trenches for me. But this lot in cambridge that i spoke to want to do their own trenches at a vast cost....  Cambridge@allenArchaeology.co.uk

 

[Post and beam]

24 minutes ago, Roundtuit said:

Is there anything from the Archeaology guys on the planning portal for your application that would add clarity perhaps?

No becuase no response was recieved from them, therefore nothing for east herts to add to the portal.

[Roundtuit]

10 minutes ago, Post and beam said:

What were the dimensions of the trenches please?

 

Can't recall off the top of my head.  As a guess, they must have been maybe 2m wide, 6m long and 1m deep.  I hired a JCB and driver locally for two half days (half day to dig, then back a few days later to fill in after everyone had seen enough soil).

[saveasteading]

I've had about 4 projects where they attended site and looked in the holes we dug for foundations.

It slowed the job a few days. On one  we killed the need for the above. , and on  2  they wanted special trenches, but the jobs didn't go ahead 

 

If there is nothing specific in the condition, and nothing in the Local Plan, then it is likely you only need a desk top study to say that nothing is likely to be of interest.

 

FYI. On one project there were loads of roman pot fragments but they weren't interested in them

On another they were looking for signs of a Roman road. Usually they only want to see any signs of hedges and ditches to complete their maps of fields and roads.

 

Beware of them writing a report that says that you should employ themselves throughout the project. So talk to them first and engage the one you can trust: you are paying.

[Temp]

5 hours ago, Post and beam said:

What were the dimensions of the trenches please?

I have a guy with a mini digger lined up @ £225/day to come and dig trenches for me. But this lot in cambridge that i spoke to want to do their own trenches at a vast cost....  Cambridge@allenArchaeology.co.uk

 

 

So have they already done a desk study to justify that?

 

Our plot is next door to a church. The desk study showed no evidence our plot had ever been owned by or otherwise connected to the church so the planners were happy no further work required.

 

However when when we needed a water main diverted the water co insisted we needed a watching brief due to the proximity to the church. Wouldn't allow the work without. The Archaeologist had a 1 hour drive to get to us. Several times people from the water co arrived, sat around for an hour or more and went away again because their JCB was needed on another job that day. I still had to pay for the Archaeologist and his travelling time. When the JCB was available every scoop was carefully examined and the Archaeologist frequently stopped the driver and jumped in the trench, only to pull out what he called "granny's tea service". A trench I could have dug myself with a digger in two days took about four times as long and cost a small fortune. Nothing found.

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Temp

[Post and beam]

4 hours ago, Temp said:

So have they already done a desk study to justify that?

None of the 4 companies that i have contacted so far, as far as i know, have done diddly. They appear to be relying on the fact that the planning dept say there should be a survey.

I have to say that the village is known to have produced a few bits of 'who knows what' that are of interest to archeaology so in fairness its not totally out of the blue. 

From my point of view if the archeaology dept of the county cannot respond to a request for specifics from the planning dept in their own county then they forfeit the right to induce a £5k plus job on me.

[saveasteading]

24 minutes ago, Post and beam said:

From my point of view if the archeaology dept of the county cannot respond to a request for specifics from the planning dept in their own county then they forfeit the right to induce a £5k plus job on me.

I agree. Have you looked at other recent applications near you? They will all be online. If nobody else has this condition then neither should you, unless they have specific requirements, whuch clearly they haven't.

If they have, then you will see the details.

Then you write to say ...whatever. 

Come back to us when you have done this research on the planning portal.

 

[Dave Jones]

if they havent specified what sort of survey in the conditions then do the cheapest (desktop) and crack on.

 

 

[Mr Punter]

I have had 4 or 5 of these.  What a complete waste of time and money.  The only reason this happens is that it is "developer funded", so suddenly it is viable being an archaeologist.  Comprehensive reports are compiled, together with photographic and physical records, all to be filed away at the County Archaeologist, never to be examined again by anyone.

 

Meanwhile all the archaeologists get to live a comfortable middle-class life by adding to the costs of development while offering nothing of benefit in return by doing what used to be a hobby.

[saveasteading]

12 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

the cheapest (desktop) and crack on.

Assuming that the survey says "nothing to be expected here". Not copied by them to the planners but to you.  Otherwise don't submit it and try again.

I still think that the planners must have reasonable grounds to request the survey. In so doing they should explain why.

[Temp]

2 hours ago, Post and beam said:

None of the 4 companies that i have contacted so far, as far as i know, have done diddly.

 

Yeah they won't until you hire them. 

 

If the planning condition doesn't specify what type of survey then I would get these 4 companies to quote for an "Preliminary desktop study" as that's the cheapest. Pick one of the quotes to accept and hire them to do the desktop study. Ask them to send you the report.

 

If the report doesn't find anything submit it to the planners with the application and fee to discharge the condition.

 

If the desktop study does find something or makes recommendations for more work come back here for suggestions. If they recommended massive amounts of work it might even be worth getting another co to do a second desktop study in the hope they will recommend less expensive work. Otherwise send the study report back to all 4 companies to quote for that next stage.

 

Take it one step at a time. No need (yet) to spend a fortune digging on site.

 

 

[kandgmitchell]

Well our planning approval in Lincolnshire was quite specific. No development until a written scheme of investigation was approved by the County Archaeologist. Then that investigation had to take place and be reported on. No desk study here, two trenches, one 25m x 1.85m and another 5m x 1.85m. This was due to the site being about 250m from the medieval church and there was the "potential" for remains of the medieval village being found........

 

Work done yesterday, the site is now like the somme as they dug as much as 1.3m deep. Found nothing at all (thankfully) so we move on. Just had to suck it up. At least I could take a soil sample for testing.

[Post and beam]

Just to be clear, the village is already an area of archealogical interest. Dont know who decides that but it means a desktop survey wont cut it. 

It turns out that the convention the county uses ( Hertfordshire) is 'trench 5% of the area of the site in the area of the footprint of the project'. The people i have consulted are aware of this but i was not. They have to submit a written submission of work ( the WSI) it gets approved by county, they dig the trenches and we all hope that nothing is found.

Guiding principle seems to be. Anything found will likely mean more work is required and i will have to pay for it, and accept the inevitable delay. They decide what needs to happen with no recourse from me and i just write them a blank cheque.

[saveasteading]

 

If you look at nearby applications (on-line) you should find what they did, and yours is very likely to be similar.

 

It bothers me that a cosultant is asked what is required, and to quote for any study they themselves decide.

I once had a £2,000 report for looking in the trenches we had dug. Standard introduction, what we might find, we looked in the hole, we found nothing. Summary: we looked in a hole and found nothing. Stretched over 8 pages, then back and front covers and a binder. 1 page was enough.

 

Since then i was much firmer and argued against excessive cost. Also required them to look in our trenches pre concrete, not in special ones.

 

I guess i have had this 10 times.  It really depends what they are looking for.

Usually just field margins for the record. Once roman detritus...which they don't keep, once any sign of a Roman road (no). All sensible apart from the cost level. Once though looking for footings for a Victorian  brickworks, which i challenged the need for and they reluctantly withdrew the requirement.

 

So back to sentence 1. And report back and perhaps we can help more.

 

[saveasteading]

26 minutes ago, kandgmitchell said:

At least I could take a soil sample for testing.

I would do some simple strength tests while there.

These are acknowledged by NHBC and come from technical papers.

How far can you push a steel rod into the ground?

How far can you hammer a non-pointed 2 x 2 into the ground.

 

If of any interest I can find the details.

We did this on our project and proved that the ground was hard, not medium as the SE had allowed, saving lots of concrete.

 

[Bitpipe]

We had one as a condition when we did our basement, trigger was some neolithic find some 20-30 years previously when a new estate was built about 150m away.

 

There was not much choice of agency but the one we used had a reasonable fee for a scheme of investigation (to initially satisfy the planning condition) and a one day watching brief while our GW dug a few trenches. Nothing of interest found, they wrote a simple report and job was done. All for a fixed fee, just over £1k back in 2016. 

 

The costs do escalate if anything of interest is found.

[Post and beam]

3 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

All for a fixed fee, just over £1k back in 2016.

I wish.

More like about £5k now. Welfare facilities for the archealogists. Open ended upwards from £5k if they decide they want to do more.  One firm wanted to reserve the right to call a sight meeting with the county archealogist at £95/hour billed to me when and if they decided to do so. You will understand why i am wary of the whole circus.

[Furnace]

From bitter experience, I'm very wary of the potential for self-serving results of the various stages. The Desktop Based Assessments are a gateway for 'recommendation' and thus more business.

It's now likely I will need a Archaeological DBA (along with ecological, heritage, environmental, inside leg measurements, dietary predilections etc.) and I'll be very cautious about who I engage. The cheapest may make recommendations for further work, whereas a more pragmatic (honest) outcome might initially cost more, but not open a can of worms. A phone call and discussion prior to engagement is essential. I didn't know this when I started.

Bonne chance